Wishing everyone a Blessed Christmas and New Year
Want to wish you all His Blessings this Christmas and always.
I still keep watch over this site, and will respond if anyone wants to talk.
God Bless, and Merry Christmas!!
posted by Left the OALC at 1:49 AM
14 Comments:
I check your site daily for updates and new insights. Have a Wonderful Christmas!
Christ is born, praise the Lord! Wish you all Merry Christmas and Good New Year!
It's been interesting to read your blog, and other ex-oalc blogs, as well. Do you know if they have aroused any discussion among the OALC people in America? The blogs have been noticed in Finland, but I haven't heard much discussion about them. The language barries could be one reason. And on the other hand, we have things going on here, too...
I grew up in the firsborn Laestadian congregation in Finland, and I still participate in the meetings quite actively, so I know very well what you are talking about. There are many OALC (or "firstborn Laestadian", as we say here) doctrines that I don't approve of, but fortunately the Finnish firstborn Laestadian congregation is somewhat more heterogenic than OALC (as somebody already mentioned in an earlier post), different opinion are more easily accepted here, so I haven't had to make the decision to step out.
I first thought you might be related do me because I have some relatives over there, but you said you don't know any Finnish so you probably are not. All of my relatives know at least some.
Keep posting!
theoforos@yahoo.com
To Theo above
Tell us some of the doctrines over there that are considered sin and some of the things that are ok. It has been said that there is some dissension over there. Is this true?
I can't speak for the OALC. As far as the Finnish or First Apostolic Lutheran Church (split from the OALC about 100 years ago), yes there are rifts right now. The last "big split" was in the 1970's. There was just a split in the Cokato, Minnesota church. I really don't know details since I have left the church. Detroit, Michigan had quite a few people leave about 6 years ago or more. The Bible does tell us that there will always be divisions to keep the word pure. My opinion is that all or most of these divisions have been over issues of men, not doctrine. This being because I don't believe any of the many splits and divisions are following and teaching the "true" Christianity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I think I maybe expressed myself unclearly... I was talking about the equivalent of OALC in Finland (which is called "Firstborn Laestadians" in Finland), not the Finnish Apostolic Lutheran Church in America.
It is true that there are some dissensions here, in some localities the situation is actually quite distressing. There is disagreement about the position of the so-called Elders of the Swedish Lapland (supreme authority or not) and certain practical things in a Christian's everyday life. There has been also some disagreement about the doctrine of baptism (regeneration or not) and about the communion (is the communion in the Lutheran state church according to the new service books OK or not). And there is also disagreement about whether there is salvation outside of the Firstborn Laestadian/Old Apostolic Lutheran system.
The things I was referring to as practical things in everyday life is probably what you meant when you asked about the different things that are taught to be sin. I'm not using the word "sin" here because you often hear people say that "it is inappropriate" or "it has been preached against", without actually saying that it is directly sin.
The practical things that there is disagreement about include, among others, the following things: music (listening to music, playing instruments, singing in choirs), flowers (is it ok to have flowers at home and church), art (is it ok to hang paintings on the walls), women wearing pants (e.g. is it ok for girls to come to young people's gatherings at the church wearing pants), tv (is it ok to have tv in your home), watching movies (is it ok to watch movies at home or at a movie theater), Christmas tree, scarves, hairstyles. You name it...
I think the vast majority of the Firstborn Laestadians in Finland accept musical instruments, listening to hymns, singing in choirs (by the way, just a couple of weeks there was a concert of a Firstborn Laestadian choir with hundreds of Laestadians and even some preachers in the audience), flowers, paintings and pants, while tv and movies may not be as widely accepted, but many people do that too. Most people have no problems with a Christmas tree if you have it in front of your house (even many preachers have it), but it is not so common to take it inside the house.
I've read the "sin lists" somebody wrote either on this blog or some other blog, and I was actually amazed by some of the "sins" because I never heard about them before. I think some of the mentioned things are local and might not be considered bad everywhere in America either. There is some local variation in Europe, too.
Theoforos
(that's just a nick, not my real name)
So there seems to be lots of things that are 'different' over there than over here in America, yet the Laestadian preachers over here act like ALL the OALC/Firstborn Laestadians all over are the same. Not true is it? THAT is what brings division. By not sticking to the Bible. It boggles my mind that as OALC people get older and supposedly wiser they cannot see what is going on and keep making excuses as more and more things become 'sin' (in certain localities and not others) even though it is not Biblically based. It becomes very confusing to the people and so then they have to go to the preachers and get permission for every little thing they do, thus giving the preachers more and more control. Interesting, isn't it, how that works?
Merry Christmas everyone! I'd like to say a warm kiitos to theoforo (bearer of God) for the information about the Firstborn in Finland. I am very interested in learning more. What is it about the new service books that is causing dissension, for example?
The problem with the new service books is that nobody really knows what the problem is... ;)
The Elders of the Swedish Lapland have said that there is something wrong with it but unfortunately they failed to specify what exactly the problem is, so most Finns have problems with understanding what they mean. However, some people think that we are supposed to follow the Elders of the Swedish Lapland blindly without questioning, and according to them we were either to demand separate "tailored" communion services at the Lutheran state church according to the old service books or we were to arrange own communion at the prayer house like they do in Sweden.
Discussions were started, and the preachers had a few meetings, and the final solution was a compromise: services according to the old service book are to be preferred but if it is not possible no-one should feel bad about going to a service that is celebrated according to the new service book. Thus, a "cease fire" in this particular issue was achieved, at least temporarily, but I don't think everybody has abandoned their dream about leaving the state church and starting own communions...
All these battles that have been going on for the last 10-15 years are of course a heavy burden on all the Firstborn Laestadian Christians, and the battle tends to take the attention away from the daily life in faith.
But there is also something positive to it. If a battle of faith is raging around you, you start seeking the truth, and for me it felt natural to start seeking back to the roots. I have had to delve into the Bible (I've even learned to read it in the original languages to some extent), the history of the early church, the Apostolic fathers, the church fathers, and also writings of later teachers in the church history. Now I know quite a bit about the church history and how the early Christians thought, taught and lived, but the paradox is that the more you know, the more you see your own limitations. When I knew less, I felt I knew more than I do now.
I have also befriended Christians from other groups than the Firstborn Laestadians; different Laestadian groups, Lutheran groups, and other denominations. I've visited their services and spent time with them in discussions and also prayer. As I have been doing this, I have found the Orthodox church to be very close to what I find in the ancient writings from the beginning of the Christianity. So,
I might very well join that Church some time in the future, if it is the will of God.
Theoforos
If you wonder why I'm using such a strange nick, "God-bearer", let me explain. It dates back to Ignatios, the bishop of Antioch, who was martyred about 100 years after Christ. He used the word "theoforos" when referring to himself when he started his letters (if you want to read his letters, search "The Apostolic Fathers" at amazon.com). Through the faith God is living in every Christian and bringing salvation. So, "theoforos" practically means the same as "Christian".
It's Theoforos here again... babbling like another Greek... ;) Sorry if you get bored, but it is so easy to talk and talk in the internet because you are never interrupted and you can just pretend that you have a very interested audience.
But I just wanted to comment on something in a post by one of the anonymous posters above, about preachers saying that the Firstborn/OALC system is the same everywhere. It doesn't have to mean that they are dishonest. For the first, they may very well honestly believe that it is exactly the same. Not everybody has been to so many different places, and even if you have been, you often don't really see much of the everyday life of the local people, if you go to big meetings for example. And besides, when you talk with people, they are not likely to volutarily take up issues in which they suspect that you might have a different opinion. And for the second, there can be difference in the requirements for being "the same". Some people may have noted certain differences, but if the core is the same, they still insist that it is all the same everywhere.
And then a couple of words about asking the preachers for advice. There is diffinitely a difference between America and Europe! It seems to me that Americans are a lot more eager to ask the preachers about everything. Europeans, in general, will do as they please without asking. To me it seems almost like you are passing the responsibility for your life on someone else if you ask for advice in every single decision you have to make.
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Here it is.
Theoforos, you write very well. So why are the Americans more conservative? Perhaps it is the immigrants' response to "being in a strange land," surrounded by diverse beliefs and customs. Muslims in the U.S. also tend to be more conservative than in their home countries. Also the Quakers. What is your view?
As for asking advice about everything, yes, it is a kind of abdication of responsibility. Some OALC folk ask their preachers to tell them what kind of car to buy (American-made, of course) and where to buy a house (near a church, naturally).
Whether or not specific advice is given, the asker can thereafter justify his choice by saying he "consulted the preachers." My own parents and OALC kin boycotted my wedding this way. They were told "they didn't have to go" by the preachers. Not "love one another" or "let your light shine" or anything remotely Scriptural.
Jonathan!!!
You need to take what exoalc says lightly...very lightly. I am a member of the OALC and they DO NOT discourage studying the bible. That is not true and has never been true. Many people take Bibles and the NT to church and follow along with what ever text has been taken.
Any darts thrown at us with a factual basis are expected. Distortions are not acceptable. This blogger needs to re-read the ten commandments.
I too am a member of the OALC & where do people get these ideas that we are discouraged from reading the bible? Never have I heard that from a preacher or anyone. Like I said I am not sure where people are hearing that but it is just not true! We are encouraged to read the bible to gain a better understanding.
anonymous 3:14
The times I read what they "spoke along side of" and came to a different interpretation, I was told it was "the intellect" -- the devil trying to tempt me not to believe the way it was taught.
Try reading the good samaritan parable and honestly try to hear what He is saying, without the Laestadian "twist".
The Word was written for all-- not just those that ended up being Laestadians. It was ok to read the Bible at the OALC as long as you never challenged their interpretation of it. If you look in your heart, you know that's the truth.
Start reading the passages they speak along side of every Sunday after you're home and take the time to decide what you really think He's trying to tell you. You'll be amazed what He reveals to you.
God bless!
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