Welcome, hp3!
Wanted to move a post up front so it will be seen from hp3--
" I have spent many days reading through all the different conversations here. My head is swimming, my heart is beating fast. I dont know where to start. I have left a few short comments on other links, but there is always so much more. After I first found this site, I journaled 8 pages in one night, to help sort out my momories, thoughts and emotions. And of course reading my bible! I left the OACL in my early 20's. It has been a long, yet absolutely wonderful, struggle to understand the differences in what I was taught and what the bible says. I believe that as with everything in life, it is a life journey, not a destination, and I will continue to pray, read and learn until I die. Well I guess before I get going too far, I want to make sure someone is out there? I left a post asking to start a new conversation so it will not be so hard to track down a post within a conversation strain, and keep the recent posts readlily available. I dont really want to just journal to myself :)I look forward to conversing with others who have the unique background of having left a cult, and survived. I have worked through many issues, but again, as with life, there always lingering 'stuff'I guess I will start by continuing to check this site to see if there is anyone else out there as of late? "
We're here hp3! I'd love to hear some of your journal...
posted by Left the OALC at 9:24 PM
71 Comments:
Hi hp3--I hope you continue to visit and share. I feel like I have learned a lot about myself through these sites. I have some old anger towards the unfairness of some of the rules of the OALC (man made) that has started to lessen. Anyhoo--glad to hear from you--please write more.
LLLreader: The posts seem to come in spirts, but never fear hp3--we're here!
Yes we are here, though life sometimes keeps us out of the loop for periods. That 'busyness' that annoys us, yet we are thankful for!
By the way it's best to leave your comments on the most current conversations. The old ones don't seem to get read very often. Except by those new to the blogs.
This is copied from one of the other conversations, but I want to make sure its included as a continuom (sp? :)
"I grew up in the OALC, probably 10th generation. I stopped going several years ago, and am now happily married to a Christ centered Christian. It was such a difficult struggle for so many years, and I never thought to look online for any support! I dont feel Im in a current struggle over my own salvation, but more with how to deal with the family and friends I left behind. I pray for them (probably as much as they pray for me :) I am thankful I found these websites (actually my husband did) I dont think Ive ever had anyone to talk to about these expereinces, that has actually been there too. It is a cult, and those involved have all the side effects. I had so many memories, reading this. Many were of the "big family" that I miss so much, but those are childhood memories and not the reality of any relationship today. No one wants to know ME or what I am doing with my life, or how I BELIEVE. All they know is that is different than them, therefore wrong and they dont want to discuss it, just tell me how sorry they are for me. I want to laugh and cry and say I feel the same way (except that I do care where they are in thier life) Sorry to get going, its just so great to finally know there are other people out there who feel the same way. And I am, now more then ever, so thankful I listened to the Holy Spirit whisper to my heart, that there is a way to KNOW Jesus. I can cry from JOY instead of "wretched worm" syndrome. THANK YOU to whomever started this site!"
I was surprised at how much anger surfaced while expoloring these sites. Anger at the old stuff. I know I believe that I am thankful where I am today, and I realize I am who I am because of each experience I have had. And I thought I felt completely that way too, so I was surprised at the anger that came back.
I left the OALC commented:
"It saddens me that those still there now see me as "a lost soul". They have no concept of what it's like for those that have left to find Christ. They see this site as a work of evil intent on drawing them away from "Christianity".
God knows my heart and intentions. I post because of His love, and my hopes to share it with others."
This is also a very personal struggle for me. I dont agree with, nor miss, the "teachings" from the OALC, but I do miss my family. I miss that I could go anywhere in the world and people would know who I was, or my relatives, and I would have open arms to welcome me. I belive that is what Christianity should be. CHRISTIANS not OACL church members.
It saddens me that they dont want thier children around mine because we might "influence" them. And its ironic that I feel the same way. Dont know wether to laugh or cry but I often do both.
My husband and I have been discussing how much contact, especially "unsupervised" our children should have with thier cousins that are still active in the church. And the more I think about defending thier right to believe, I just cant extend thier right to believe to also be thier right act condesending and superior to my children.
I pray a lot, and I wish this could be discussed with my family, but conversations get nowhere.
it makes me think of the parable about the seeds. A persons seed of "christianity" should not be sown in sand, at the whim of every wind and sandle that walks by. I can put that off on the OALC members, but more importantly I can take that on myself and my family and do my best to give them a firm foundation :)
Ive also noticed how people, including myself :) speak in "general terms" rather than specifics. Current OACL members assume that if I am not a current believer of their ways, they think they know how I DO believe. I dont get asked, I get told.
I have incorperated some of what I was taught growing up into who I am today; it would be impossible not to, but I still want to be known for ME, not just branded a "worldly" and stuck in another confining box.
Ok, Ive vented my generals and given enough negative for today. I am trying to work very hard on not finding fault nor being bitter. I want my opions to be just that: my opinions and my feelings.
On the up side I have been reading my bible more and praying about all this. I have phrases of worship songs that have stayed stuck in my head and replayed all day long, and I have even been dreaming about dancing with my arms raised and my heart bursting with joy and love for my savior.
And I know I still have sin, and I still have times of sorrow and repentance, and the joy of forgiveness carries so much further than "the movement" and I love to share that.
Thanks for being out there :) I also believe God knows our hearts. And Im not perfect so I realize some of what I share may be leftover bitterness, and I am working on forgiving them also.
Ok me again... you asked for it! :) And THANK YOU for allowing me the opportunity to share and converse with me. I cant tell you how much I truly appreciate it.
One of the things I can see, looking back, is that I feel the OALC preachers manipululate the beauty of the Holy Spirit, and try to put themselves in Its place.
I believe the Holy Spirit was sent onto the earth after Christ's death and ressurection, to guide and lead each and every one who will listen, to Christ, and in the ways of God.
I believe that God could forsee all the different "versions" of faith throughout the 2 thousand years since Christ. He knew of the "telephone game" long before we did! (unfortunately the OALC preachers havent, and still use the method as a foundation for thier beliefs)
He also knew each and every one of us would be unique in body, mind and spirit because he created us that way!
Therefore, I believe its to be expected, and perfectly normal, that each individual gets something different out of the exact same bible verse. God is using the Holy Spirit to speak to what each of needs, based on our past expereinces, thougts and feelings, and where God knows He wants us to be in the future. Our mind is not evil (as the OALC preaches) but given for us to USE!
Of course we need to balance our thoughts and feelings with scripture and other followers of Christ, hence the bible and the church/fellow believers.
The OALC preachers have pretty much the same line of logic except they put themselves in the place of the Holy Spirit, and they dont have the balance of accountability.
THEY are to be sought for adivce in interpreting a scripture, and in prayer when trying to make a life decision (no matter how major or minor -my brother's wife made him ask the preachers if he could purchase a jetski, and I have been reprimanded for NOT asking for adivce)
THEY will listen to what you have to say about the current situaion and form an opinion (which is taken for fact) as to that persons "spiritual condition" and give "advice" (that is a sin to not follow) They say they give different "advice" for the same "sin" because each person is unique.
Such a sad, sick twist on something created for such beauty.
Oh and the OALC preachers dont belive God, or the Holy Spirit speaks to individuals, only the them. In fact, its preached as a sin to research what was preached about with what the bible says, bible studies are evil, and its a sin to question what the preachers say; those are doubts that need to be asked forgiveness for. But if you are all ex's you knew that.
I was very angry at the existing members who were defending thier beliefs by the method of denying what I personally experienced.
hp3, bless you for your ability to express what's in your heart. There are a lot of us that have had similar experiences -- none exactly the same, but every experience has someone who saw a similar thing on their journey.
We argue on these sites, and we laugh, and we commiserate, and we encourage, and we get upset, and we find peace. We are sometimes, cynical, we are sometimes sarcastic, we are sometimes humorous, but it's all done with love. It's through frank discussions and the opportunity to share things, to get them off our chests, and to hear others' love that we are all healing.
Peace.
to rr: I can feel your pain. Im sorry. I will pray that you continue to search for anwsers, and if you need to vent, cry, question, discuss, laugh or whatever... God will listen. Have you checked out the article left by BH regarding the common things that go on in a cult? It was quite interesting and enlightening. Dont be too hard on yourself either, its tough, and the limbo is hard, but your not alone :)
Where is DE? Were you raised in the church? If you hadnt noticed yet, Im feeling desperate to talk with others from similar backgrounds :p
also FYI extoots . blogspot . com has some discussions right now about what are you if you are no longer a lastadian? You may find some of that imput helpful. I am working on being that positive...
rr--
You're not alone. SO many of us have gone/are going through it, too. Please, don't give up on God. HE led you away from the OALC, and if you read His Word (and hopefully find a healthy BIBLE BASED church) HE will give you peace.
You've got a network of support here-- please keep talking. What difficulties do you face now that you've left (who did you leave behind there?...)
God Bless you on your journey to Him!
I think those of us who left the OALC a longer time ago have gone through every emotion imaginable. There are days when the anger is paramount and there are days when the despair takes over, but I can promise you that eventually you start to heal and then joy takes over and a peace you have to experience.
Do you stop being angry, or disappointed, or sad, or unsure? No, but it gets to a point where there is a transformation. Anger becomes replaced by understanding and compassion. The disagreeable emotions do not accomplish anything other than eating away at yourself. It goes in stages. I've still got one issue that eats at me once in awhile, but it's becoming less important all the time.
Some years ago, a priest that I really liked (Yeah, I'm now a very contented Catholic) said something I really was able to grasp. He said -- Turn the negative stuff over to God -- lay it at the base of the altar if you were -- and believe that now that you have turned the trouble over to him, it is not yours to worry about anymore. It now belongs to him and he knows what to do with it!
I am sure that what we are doing is healthy -- we counsel each other and we heal each other and we uphold each other as we all walk down our paths.
That was beautifully said, cvow.
rr, as you are birthing your new self, may you accept with increasing equanimity all the contradictory ideas and feelings you'll have. They are natural and not to be feared. You are a wonderful creation, a visitor on this earth for only a short time, and privileged to be here now.
We are more than our ideas.
Whatever your current doubts about God or religion or faith, look for evidence of love and cooperation. Practice extravagant compassion toward others and see what happens.
LLLreader: To rr, when I first tried to become part of a Bible Study group after leaving the OALC I was embarrassed because I didn't know one thing about the Bible. When I would try to pray in front of anyone, my throat would tighten up and I would start to cry. Now I can lead a group in prayer and feel comfortable. When you step out of a comfort zone, expect to flail around for a bit. You will be OK Friend. Talk to us--we do understand your feelings. Take care.
LLLreader to rr: When I first left the OALC and tried to be part of a bible study group in another church, I was embarrassed because I didn't know anything about the bible. When I tried to pray in front of anyone, my throat would tighten up and I would start to cry. Now I can lead a prayer and feel comfortable. God hears my words and they don't have to be perfect!! You will be OK Friend. We understand your feelings and want you to be comfortable with us. We are your brothers and sisters on this journey.
oops! I didn't think my first post was saved---so Dear rr, you have two versions of the same welcome from LLLreader. Two for the price of one--what a deal!
What happened to the Extoots blogspot?????
I am from the ALC. growing up I thought we were the only church like this. can't believe how widespread it is. I completely understand the difficulties you express!
It was a process for me to leave the church-that is a understatement! I thank God for it now!
It bothers me how leaving the church creates such an inner termoil... for those wishing to leave and those wishing to stay. Granted, the issue of spiritual belief and/or practice is of utmost importance, but it still amazes me that the subject can cause so many problems. Although if one were to look at history, our worlds have been defined and reshaped numerous times for faith/religious reasons, and not always for the better either.
On a note closer to home... I told my mom I had found some websites pertaining to the church (she still attends) and she said "oh a bunch of people who just want to complain" That made me so sad.
I really make an effort to not be negative, and my goal is not to "just complain" but to sort through all the confusion that feels like spiderwebs in my brain, my heart and my soul.
Sometimes there is anger that surfaces, to varying degrees, and I try to be constructive about it, and not just whine or attack.
I think I mentioned earlier, that my primary frustration, is when someone still attending the church denies my personal experiences could have ever happened. Or that I must have misunderstood, or my soul is not in the right condition or I would be able to accept what went on. In those situations it is very difficult for me to remain positive sometimes, but again my goal is searching for and reaching a constructive solution.
well I still believe that the Holy Spirit was sent to the earth to dwell in us -individually, those who seek, and boy am I seeking!
Someone had mentioned earlier, about trying to participate in a bible study and feeling so inept and uneducated because we were not encouraged to read our bibles. I can relate!! So I have decided to read my bible, as one who has never read or heard before, with continous prayer. Im tired of trying to sort through so many generations of man made confusion and interpretations.
I also discovered need to also work on accepting that there will be some who chose to remain in the church, and I need to respect and accept that, just as I have wish the same for myself.
My journal contained a lot of frustration and bitterness, so I'll probably try to sort through much of it, put a constructive twist in before I share. Those having gone through it, Im glad to hear the bad feelings lessen with time.
BUt I am feeling a lot of sadness lately. that my family thinks I am 'lost' when for the first time I feel truly found. that my children wont know some of the great things about belonging to such a huge family, that those good things have to stop just because I found a different way to believe in and worship God. sigh.
sorry, LLLreader said they felt embarrassed because they didnt know anything about the bible. My personal feelings were uneducated and inept. Dont want to be putting words into your mouth, sorry about that!
Im still trying to teach my kids how to pray, and I rely on my husband more for that. Ive taught them "our father who art in heaven" and we still say that one, but its too easy to just repeat the words, instead of really praying earnestly with my heart. And it was terribly uncomfortable and embarrassing at first, occasionally still is. Until I envision that I am bowing before my God and my king. Then I just open my heart and usually dont even remember what exactly I said, much less worry about it. :)
Thank you for sharing your individual struggles too. Its nice to know hear triumphs through the struggles.
hp3, one of the great comforts I've found is in the great old prayers that are so familiar. I find that on different days, I focus on different phrases. For example, in the Our Father, I find myself often spending a good deal of time thinking about the phrase "thy will be done", to which I usually try to remind myself, "yes, THY will, and not MY will!" Another old prayer that I love dearly is the "Glory Be". If you're not familiar with it, it goes, "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen" I think there is so much contained in those few words, and they are often a source of comfort and inspiration to me.
I applaud you for planning to read the Bible. What I suggest is that you resist the standard format, starting with Genesis and marching on through in order. The Bible is really a collection of books, written by many people and over many years. Reading it in order would be sort of like going to a library, starting with the first book on the first shelf, and plowing through all of the stacks! I think you'll find the reading more enjoyable and inspirational if you approach it a little differently...
Try reading the Acts of the Apostles first. That in turn will make Paul's letters to the various groups make more sense and sort of put things into perspective. As you progress in Paul's letters, you find he often refers to books of the Old Testament, which then interests you in reading them and the background they provide. There's no right way or wrong way to read the Bible, but this is one good way to get started! While I have not timed myself, a couple of my friends read the Bible for just 15 minutes each and every day. They say it takes them just one year to read the entire Bible, and then they start again! Obviously reading and pondering speeds are not standard. Remember too as you switch from old to new Testaments that thousands of years occurred during their writing, so styles change over time as well as the approach. I hope that helps.
Check out this link for an interesting and encouraging thought about reading the Bible:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/singingman7/CoalBasket.htm
yes, cvow, I love to sing the old hyms still. My children love it when I sing to them, and I feel closer to my mom and grandma as I remember them singing to me. I am probably the only young person in our new church that requests the old hymns :)And no matter what type of songs I sing to my children, I hope I can give them some of the same, happy memories. My husband would have a hard time listening :) but I would love to have some of the old hyms to listen to.
I have also taken time to study the prayer "our father who art in heaven" with my kids. We break it down, line by line, and discuss what it is we are praying for/about. That has opened up the door to other forms of prayer, and got me out of simple repetition. I truly feel my children are such a blessing in this respect also - I can relearn at a childs pace, which is where I feel I am sometimes.
Im still not sure why the OALC says this is the only type of prayer that should be prayed? Something about the pharacies flowery, lengthly and showy prayers... (how long before the 'voices' in my head stop comparing the life I want with how I was raised? ie 'oops, Im having a bible study with my children...') I dont feel like Im doing anything wrong now, I just wish I could stop comparing, because it makes me feel so lied to and misled and hurt and angry.
Im almost overwhelmed at how much I dont know, how much there is to cross reference and investigate. I feel as though I almost have to throw everything I thought I knew out the window and start over with a brand new, empty brain. That will at least eliminate some of the anger...
and unfortunately Im not a recent ex. Its been almost 10 years since I tried to start leaving, and about... 5 since I have been back. Ive been through almost every type of therapy, and yes, emotion there is. I thought I had moved on, but yes life is a journey, so here I am :)
Now, for the first time, I feel like I am dealing with this (as if its not complex and a part of every other part of my life)I feel like I can, because Ive found others like me, that I can speak to without being looked at like I fell off the coconut wagon. (although thats a look I rather enjoy getting in the other areas of my life :)
to exoalc: I hope my journal isnt taking over your blog. There seems to be an abundance of them out there, and if you would rather, I could start my own? Although I had never heard the word blog until a few months ago. I want to make sure I am respectful of you and your purpose for creating your site, not plow my way through.
I love the old hymns too. A lot of them are like prayers set to music.
It's amazing how much the prayer "our father who art in heaven" actually contains when you study it, isn't it?
cvow: thanks for sharing your way of reading the Bible, I hadn't thought of approaching it that way before.
hp3:I think this like any other traumatic event in our lives is something we will have to deal with to a degree (and in phases-sometimes more sometimes less) for the rest of our lives. So don't get discouraged, you're really not back where you were before, it's just another level. (or another layer of healing) It's also a part of who we are which we can choose to use to increase our depth of character and understanding of others. It's not all bad! (although it is frustrating)
Joy, yes there really is a lot in the simple old short prayers and scripture, isn't there. I strongly believe that any words are acceptable to use in prayer if they come from the heart. I envy people who can give an impromptu prayer -- for instance Grace before a meal -- and the sincerity is humbling. However, I really like the old prayers -- the Our Father, the Glory Be, and the Creed because they're sort of like putting on old shoes -- they feel good, and you know they do the trick!
Hymns are indeed prayers -- think of the psalms which are often sung. I had the great good fortune to hear a very talented Jewish cantor sing some of them, some years back. I swear I could close my eyes and smell the desert, as the emotions evoked in that music were so strong. Interestingly enough, he also sang the Lord's Prayer. We did not want him to stop.
One thing that does sort of upset me is that in the RC church I attend, when the priest has recessed, the congregation tends to start to leave during the singing of the last hymn, and it seems to me almost as if they are not finishing that last prayer. Now perhaps that is liturgically acceptable, as it is a recessional. However, most don't know the hymns well enough to continue to sing as they recess. Of course, Catholics at their best are not the singers that Lutherans are! :-)
"You are not starting the conversation from scratch, just remembering to plug back into a conversation that is always in progress." (Anne Lamott, on praying)
"the congregation tends to start to leave during the singing of the last hymn, and it seems to me almost as if they are not finishing that last prayer."
That kind of thing annoys me too.
Also some churches (or songleaders) habit of leaving out verses, especially in the middle of the hymns. A lot of times it feels like an incomplete thought.
Hello hp3!
Please don't worry about taking up the space here-- folks like you are why I started this blog.
I wanted there to be a place for people in your situation to have a "safe haven" to discuss/inquire... It would have helped me so much back when I was searching, and I feel I was "inspired" to start this so others would have a place to start (and continue) their journey.
God's peace and love to you as you continue your journey to Him.
LLLreader: to left the OALC--what you said was exactly right. It's good to hear from folks who are right in the midst of leaving physically and emotionally and this is exactly the right place for them--so write on hp3!! Or I could say "right on". Also, I am reminded that, for some people, belonging to the OALC works. For those people who feel their spiritual needs are being met, who believe in the teachings, who want to be part of that group--then I say, "God bless you, follow your heart". God know us and knows how he manifests himself in us. This blog, and others like it, are for people for whome the OALC doesn't work. Bless us all.
LLLreader: Hey Folks, just because I spelled whom wrong--it's no reason to quit writing! :) Hope you are all feeling the love of the Lord today--God Bless!
I tried to post this on oalcescape, but Im not a blogger and didnt have time to figure out how to become one :p
I can relate to the "shunning" Even when I was growing up in the church, the kids in my immediate family were called "half breeds" because my mom married a "worldly" I always felt I would never fit in, not even if I desperately wanted to. "the sins of the fathers visit the third and fourth generation" I was told.
I belive consequences do follow the generations; step families and the like. What action does not have a reaction?
I mentioned in the I left the oalc blog, how I am trying to figure out how to deal with my family that still attends the church. We each dont want our children around the other family -unsupervised. There are many hard feelings, and neither side is willing to give in. And my family cant just agree to disagree. It does hurt badly.
I have spent many years searching for 'replacement' family among good friends and other christians, and in another church. For the most part, its great, but family is still family, and there are still things to be worked out.
It is amazing though, how quickly I am 'forgotten' when I stop 'coming around' to thier church. I used to also live in Battle Ground, and it was easier to run the other direction than have to feel 'looked through.' I am always welcomed if I go see them, or go around them, but then and only then. No one calls me or comes to see me. No one asks how I am doing, or what I am doing with my life. No one knows me, and I feel no one wants to know -because they dont ask. And since I never attend that church anymore, it appears Ive dropped off the earth, even though I live next door. If Im not involved in thier world, I dont exist, (except to invite me back in) I feel they refuse to acknowledge a world outside thier own. There is no room for anything or anyone else unless its on thier terms. Period.
sorry, this is a current issue... My husband and I have been discussing and praying on how to deal with this. It greatly saddens me that the general conseses seems to be "be willing to lose some so called friends" It doesnt make it hurt any less though...
Thanks for your advice on "letting go" It all sounds so good in theory, but in practice is where Im having trouble. I guess it just makes me so mad that those "precious friendships" are really that shallow, now when it comes down to thinking and believing differently. Not accepting people for who they are defeats the entire purpose of a true friendship, in my mind. And finding out there is really nothing precious about it, makes me sad and mad.
Ive also been thinking about 'laying down my ground rules and if they want a freindship with me, they will make the effort and respect them' That is also an interesting approach, as I have found they use the exact same approach at me; meaning if I convert back, there is always a door open for me, but if not, I no longer exist, Im a worldly, somewhere out there beyond thier existance,and they dont think of me anymore. Out of sight, out of mind.
I guess I do just need to be willing to let go... as they apparently are...
For reasons of dysfunction, rather than religion, I have spent many years finding friends to "substitute" for a family. Maybe its easier to leave than to be left? Or maybe its that dysfunction can become healthier, with work, but religious blindness and superiority cant. Although nothing can be overcome unless a person wants that. Its just that the word "family" implies so much, yet Im finding can deliver so little. Im ok to replace, but have to work on letting go...
My one brother, the only one still in the church, actually refused to come to my wedding, because I 'was not fee to marry' and my husband wasnt from the church. My husband of course would now rather never see my brother, and feels betrayed if I want to visit my brother. (which I can understand) I know that now that we are married, my brother will grudgingly toloerate the marriage, and wont continue to make an issue of it, but that doesnt undo his rejection in the first place. I have been to my brothers house a few times, but havent felt like bringing up the can of worms. On the other hand if feels terribly shallow not to. I just need to get it over with...
Well thanks for corresponding! Its nice to have someone understand without having to spend hours trying to explain all the unusual dynamics!
I never thought I could find someone to have anything in common with my unique mix of beliefs and experiences. I always thought I would have to marry an ex oalcer, as I never found anyone within the church a possibility. But my husband has his own unique background, and most importantly we have both made our journey of spiritual discovery for ourselves, and not anyone else.
I have read through a lot of these posts and it makes me sad to think that some of the people left the OALC because they couldn't follow the "rules". Yes there are rules but every church has them. Let's take the TV which is a sin in the OALC. Can anyone really say that there is much good on there? Aside from the news, national geographic for example it is garbage plain and simple. I can only pray for you lost souls as it is the true hearts desire that you will believe in the grace to believe.
exoalc: thank you for your comment to anon above. The oalc speak is a language all its own eh?
to anon above: I finally do have the grace to believe, now that Ive left. Instead of believing only what the preachers say, I read the bible for what Jesus said. And I do believe in the grace to believe in Jesus Christ as my savior who died for my sins, and to whom I am eternally, and gratefully willing to serve. Where did you get the idea that I, or any of us, didnt?
ok I probably missed the boat again by a few weeks, but Im trying to get the hang of this blog thing, and I cant keep up! I was reading on Learning to Live Free, and found the subject about BG schools and sports.
I grew up in MN and Brush Prairie congretations. MN seemed all right with sports as long as involvment wasnt "too much" (not sure what that meant exactly at my young age)but when we moved to Battle Ground, sports were evil. I had to sneak to go to the football games in high school (90s) There was also this idea that if a group of kids from church went to the park to play after church that was a sin, but if they were at the park and someone found a ball and wanted to play, well that may be all right because it wasnt planned. (I just walked away, couldnt even ask for the logic behind that one)THese changes and discrepencies were some of the reasons I had doubts at a young age.
There was one in particular that was very amusing: it was preached that it was a sin for women to NOT wear nylons (how recent of an invention are they???) and for men over confermation age to wear jeans to church. Show me again in the bible where it says anything about THAT? Correct me if Im wrong, but didnt Jesus go out into the streets and preach to the poor? Im sure they werent all fancied up to show off...
cvow: Ralph Stewart was my uncle (great) and I miss him dearly.
I have also noticed changes in the church, even though I am not that old yet. There are differences in the different localities even. And your right, definatley a new message of distain, and spitefulness towards others.
I miss the old sermans that actually had some substance to them. That included grace and forgiveness. I now attend a church that has a great balance of Gods love and His wrath, as both do exist. THe current oalc trend seems to be moving towards 99% wrath and 1% grace, but the 99% isnt even biblical wrath, its nylons and jeans. "trying to achieve a micro behavoiral purity"
Once again, I belive Jesus came to preach forgiveness, and sin no more. He didnt keep focusing on ONLY sin-sin-sin. And current OACLers hate it when grace is brought up. THey interpret I am saying I have no more sin ever, and no further need for grace. STOP adding that extension to what Im saying! (sorry thats a sore point)
theorforus has an interesting, and accurate with my expereinces, insight on the attitudes regarding the ad's. Im surprised they would lose thier "superiority" and be included in a local 'church group' listing.
RE the african american nationality: I remember in high school at one of the young kids gatherings, someone asked why there were no blacks in our church? The answer: blacks were inferior and the scum of the earth, therefor couldnt be saved. Im completely serious and not exaggerating. I was the adovocate for equality and at least not putting down others in my family. My brothers to this day still feel the same old way.
to exoalc
The preachers do not want you to worship them, what a farse you tell. They want you to feel sorrow over your sins and testify through forgiveness to Jesus. I can only hope that you will not end up on the path to destruction.
LLLreader: "left because they couldn't follow the rules". Naaa-that's not the reason people leave. It's because the rules are often made up on some guy's whim, and they seem to change on whims. My feeling is that the scope of study, or thought, or prayer, or knowledge, exhibited by the Preachers regarding the Bible, or any matters of God, belief, Christ, Bible stories, or any other term pertaining to religion is too narrow to even be able to touch what it means to be a real Christian. I see the reason there is so much nit picking about things like nylons is that there is such a skinny little area to focus on. My church is supporting an orphanage in Africa--is there time to check on who is wearing nylons to church? No. We just finished sponsoring and teaching a Bible School for some low income kids to teach them about the Lord. Are we going to have the energy to check on who is wearing jeans? No. It would be EASY to "follow the rules" if I actually believed it would lead to my salvation. How hard is it to not wear makeup? I don't care about it that much anyway. Granted, it would be difficult to have lots of kids. If I were raising a child and all I did was to dress him and didn't spend time, energy, or money, feeding him, educating him, taking him to the Dr., and all of the other things parents do to raise kids---then I could sure be aware of every seam and button on his outfit. The kid might starve to death, but Oh well, he would certainly be well dressed. That's what the OALC looks like to me. I have often said that if a person belongs to that church--then blessings to them, if it works for them. It didn't work for me, and it sure wasn't because I couldn't follow the rules!!!!
Its strange to be looked at as a lost soul... this has been commented on a different post on this site also.
I feel the same way towards those wishing to stay in the church, could even send thier concerns and prayers right back at them in exact quotes...
But not becuase I feel superior or elite. Although I feel Ive found the one true way -through CHRIST and the bible. so maybe my attitude is no better?
what a strange twist, to have the same outcome but coming from completely different perspectives.
who says we dont feel sorrow over our sin? Who says we dont repent? I never claimed that to be my status, so dont feel sorrow over the condition you put on me.
There is just a difference of opinion as to what is considered sin, how to repent, and what the rules are... I personally get my ideas from the bible.
For the record, I also believe there is much garbage on TV. BUt I dont think its a sin, the shows can be a sin. Which means that on the TV I own, I am a mature, responsible adult and monitor what I and my family watches. I dont hide what I do or what I really believe.
I think all of you need to rexamine your soul condition. You should all come before thee with a broken heart and beg for forgiveness. This is the only way you can save yourselfs. I will say a prayer for all of you.
Dont know about the 'only' way to be saved, but yes I do need forgiveness, and yes I fall on my knees with a broken heart and beg forgiveness, and yes I also feel forgiven. Thanks for your prayers. You are in mine also.
There is a song:
"If you see me on my knees, its not because Im weak, Im getting stronger"
Anonymous, you pushed a button you shouldn't ought to have pushed. You'll have to forgive me, as I'm about to rip your skin off, but I think it needs to be done.
Just exactly when did God appoint you his personal judge in charge of deciding who the "lost souls" are? Perhaps there was a revelation that I missed. Surely I don't need to address you as "Your Honor" or anything do I?
I think that there is nothing wrong with discussing with a fellow traveller something that you believe to be inappropriate behavior. Once you have expressed your feelings -- in a loving manner, because anything else is hypocrisy -- then it is up to the person to heed or dismiss your advice. If they choose to believe differently than you do, it is not your place or your responsibility to do more -- and that certainly includes condemning them.
By declaring those who choose to follow a different path than you yourself do as "lost souls", you have set yourself as a somehow morally superior individual, taking on a role that God has not given you. That's called self righteousness.
I have no idea what your personal beliefs are Anon, but I have heard your brothers and sisters talking down and laughing about "niggers" while standing 20 feet from the church building. That's called prejudice and hate.
I've seen your brothers and sisters keep TVs in their homes but hide them when other "Christians" come over. That's called lying.
I've heard your brothers and sisters talking in the church yard about how effective their radar detectors are in their cars so they can spped without having to pay fines. That's not only reckless endangerment, it is also stealing.
I've heard your brothers and sisters talk about other people behind their backs as soon as they are not in the company anymore. That's called spite and probably a lot of other things.
On this and other forums, there are many people who are struggling to help and uphold each other, people who have strong faith but have been hurt and need each other's love. Into this place of healing you come with your false platitudes and handwringing, with your judgement and hypocrisy, not to help but to hurt, over and over, with the same old tired words. Get thee behind me Satan!
The main reason I left the OALC was because I do not believe the message being preached is right or correct, and it no longer is the message that the old church fathers had in mind. It has evolved into a message of hatred, jealousy, and hypocrisy. Along with that however, is that people like you are also one of the reasons I left the OALC.
I will pray for you, that your eyes are someday opened to the truth as well, and that you start to use your intellect -- the intellect that God himself gave you to use -- rather than follow like sheep behind false prophets.
Thanks for the replies to the anon who wants to pray for all of us. cvow: it also touched a nerve with me, and I prayed to put a positive twist on my response (not to imply yours wasnt - I appreciate, and can relate to, your input) I left my reply short for fear of "ripping someone's skin off" as I also felt a sense of superiority coming through. And people like this is also another reason why I left the church and have no desire to go back...
to the anon: as cvow stated, if you have something specific you feel needs to be addressed, please feel free. but dont impose your sense of judgment or sadness on us as generically as "you poor lost souls" when you dont know us. Its not your place to decide our soul condition.
I have always been bold in what I say and I have tough skin. People do not want to hear they are on the wrong path. I just want all of you to go to heaven. I think the path you are leading outside of the OALC is the wrong way to go. All churches have things that are not in the bible. Catholics believe in pergatory; go find that place in the bible. May God give you the strength to come back.
"May God give you the strength to come back."
anonymous-oalcer, could you please drop the sin of smugness for a second? Perhaps you cannot see it, but when you say things like the quote above, you're saying that the reason we're not back in traditional Laestadianism is due to some weakness on our part. You're slurring us. It takes more strength to leave than to stay.
Take a break and stop spouting trite OALC cliches: we've already heard them. They're boring and dead.
to anon: I believe the summary of your post is that you "think the path you are leading outside of the OALC is the wrong way to go." The rest of your comments surround this statement. That is your opinion, by which you are still not in the position to be a judge, and to which we obviously disagree with. So instead of restating the same statment, agree to disagree an move on to another point. The rest of your statements are exactly as ilmarined states "spouting trite OALC cliches: we've already heard them. They're boring and dead."
Please submit some thoughts and comments that are truly your own, and that have some substance to them. I would be interested to have a real conversation; one that can go both ways, not be stopped because the cliche requires and deserves no response...
-oops got to run
anon: Exactly how do you know you are on the right path and we are on the wrong one? You don't demonstrate any thick skin or boldness by blanket statements of judgement on people you don't really know.
You said, "This is the only way you can save yourselfs."
That's exactly why many people have left. We wore ourselves out trying to save ourselves, and finally realized we didn't have to; JESUS DID IT ALL FOR US. What a relief! What JOY! That is what our prayers are for you.
on another topic;
ex: "I'd still be up on Christmas eve watching for Rudolph if I never learned he wasn't real."
As a child IN THE OALC you believed in Rudolf the red-nosed reindeer???? I didn't know that was possible.
hp3 said I can relate to the "shunning" Even when I was growing up in the church, the kids in my immediate family were called "half breeds" because my mom married a "worldly" I always felt I would never fit in, not even if I desperately wanted to. "the sins of the fathers visit the third and fourth generation" I was told.
hp3, I was also a "half breed" and never quite felt fully accepted because I was part "worldly" due to my father being from outside the church. He did join after he married my mother, but they were not married in the OALC, but rather the FALC (Heideman). I had cousins in another area who were full, generational OALC members, but since I lived near Detroit, there were no relatives of mine in the Detroit congregation. Also, I was further isolated because I lived in a southwest suburb (near my father's "worldly" family), and most of the congregation members lived in north, northeast, or northwest suburbs of Detroit. (Only one family other than mine would fit this description, if I recall correctly.)
I eventually left, not because of always feeling like a partial outsider (although that probably helped), but because I began to see the many differences between preaching and practice, as well as elitism. I saw a fair number of hypocrites in my time there ("Hide the TV!"), and have experienced some things I'm still not ready to deal with fully.
Regardless, I'm thankful that I still have my family and they still love me and associate with me. My parents still attend OALC, but my siblings have all left, and the differences are simply not discussed much. I cross paths with certain OALC friends of my parents from time to time, and at this point they are pretty friendly, but it is all in passing. I do miss some of my old friends and wonder how they are doing, but its not consuming like it used to be. There is still good in the 'world' outside of the OALC.
I always found it interesting that horrible events in life such as loss or negative experiences or the unexpected were attributed to "God's will". Yet when a person leaves the church, God's will is not an option that comes to any of their minds. There is no support there, or sympathy or attempt at understanding, because certainly God would not show someone a different path than their own.
Have any of your families genuinely asked you why you chose the way you did? Or why you believe God chose it for you? Or does it seem that leaving the church is where the line between God's will and free will has been drawn?
ex, definitely, no one I knew in the church grew up thinking Santa was anything but fiction.
cherrish: thank you for posting! I hope you share more.
to anon RE: "Have any of your families genuinely asked you why you chose the way you did? Or why you believe God chose it for you? Or does it seem that leaving the church is where the line between God's will and free will has been drawn?"
Dont know if that was directed specifically at me, but here are my thoughts :)
Thats one of the things that makes me so sad; no, no one in my family has ever taken the time to ask me how I feel or why. The few times I have tried to speak of it, Im interupted and TOLD they already know Im wrong because Im different than they are, so I just stopped talking to them.
Not sure what you mean about the line between "free will" and "Gods will" as applied to how current OALC members view me leaving the church?
But looking back on my life, there were plenty of hard times, and yes it was always considered "gods will" (even though I fell on harder times trying to follow the preachers advice, instead of praying) It seems that if thier preachers are involved in the decision making then it must be Gods will, but if not -its our (free?) will. If mishaps befall us due to the preachers advice, its a part of Gods will and our trial, but if the mishap took place and the prechers advice was not saught then we deserve what we got for being disobediant. (my experiences)
The santa clause statement is interesting... As a child I firmly believed in Santa even though my parents told me he wasnt real. My brothers and I swore through our teens even, that one night we saw a sliegh shooting across the sky! Now however, I do not encourage my children to believe in santa, or anything else that TAKES AWAY from a religious meaning holiday. I tell them we give gifts to our loved ones, and I want them to know who gave them the presents and to say thank you. My husband wants to introduce santa in addition to... but its still in the discussion phase. I need to evaluate if I feel this way now because of my own beliefs or if its just another uneducated carryover from my upbringing...
LLLreader: Oh, let them believe in Santa. A little make believe and magic in childhood doesn't keep children from knowing that the Lord is real, or why we celebrate Christmas. You are a smart person--you can teach them your values and they can still have that innocent fun. The same with Halloween. I know some people won't let their kids trick-or-treat because of what it represents. But kids just think of it as getting to wear a costume and getting candy. It's such fun for them-and gosh, childhood goes so fast.
Anonymous, I heartily second your opinion to let kids be kids. It's all good fun, and I do not ever remember being confused by the whole Jesus/Santa thing.
It's one of our family traditions that Santa still comes at Christmas and has only been caught once, by one child. But in true tradition, he spoke not a word and went about his work...
BTW the "kids" are now 26, 29, and 31...but if they're home for Christmas, Santa always knows!
Wow, I found the Santa stuff interesting. I'm from an ALC home, and Santa was something "worldly" people believed in!!
My question now as a parent, is how does one explain to little Jane and John why Santa brings other kids "better" or more toys? Kids all across the board believe in Santa... from the very rich to the poverty stricken, how does that work? I'ld like your thoughts.... Thanks
anon34
I think kids are a lot smarter than we give them credit for sometimes. Unless they are leading extremely protected lives, they figure things out pretty early on, that some kids seem to get more "stuff", whether it's Christmas, birthday, or whatever.
I think I had the Santa thing figured out by the time I was 4, but of course I didn't let on until I was 21...
You mean Santa isn't real? You're kidding, right? :-)
When our kids ask if I think Santa is real, I say that I've never seen him, but I like to think he is, because who wouldn't love a jolly elf who gives out surprises all over the world, and has reindeer with bells, and a workshop with elves . . . (by this time, they are adding to the description with delight, the power of myth being what it is).
At 5 and 7, they are pretty sure he exists.
Nonetheless, our 7-year old recently announced a new plan for verification (his attempts to stay up all night and listen for reindeer having failed). He wants to look at "the bank papers" before and after Christmas, to see if mom and dad purchased the toys.
(Not a chance, son!)
The kids make up their own rationalizations for such things as mall Santas (helpers, not real) and inequities or poor choices in gifts (goofs by dim elves), or inaccessible chimneys (ability to walk through walls).
Their enjoyment so blesses us, I'll miss it when it fades.
Shucks, so many people hang lights in our neighborhood, that I'ld feel like an athiest if my tree lights didn't show at least!! :-)
When I was a kid we usually were visited by Santa, but I can't remember really believing in him. It was just another funny Christmas thing. Well, I guess very young kids maybe believed in him, I remember feeling a bit superior to my younger sister who started crying when Santa came as I knew it was really my brother in Santa disguise. :) Once my mom was playing Santa for my nieces and nephews. She told them she had come by helicopter, delivered the presents and told some stories. Everything went well until she said: "Come to grandma, I'll give you some candy!". :) However, if I ever get kids, I don't know if I'll have Santa. I'm afraid it might distract their attention from the real meaning of Christmas.
We also always had a Christmas tree with lights on the porch so it could be seen through a window. Sometimes we even had a tree inside, but it was sort of a no-no thing when I was a kid, and to some extent it still is, although Christmas trees are getting more and more common among the oalcers in Finland (I've even talked to some young people who say they don't know anyone who doesn't have a Christmas tree).
---
Black people unable to be saved? I've heard that too, but only in America. I've also talked with other European oalcers who've been scandalized by American oalcers saying things like that.
---
Purgatory not in the Bible? Well, I don't believe in the purgatory either, but I happened to attend a Catholic apologetics course just to get to know the Catholic church better, and I learned that as a matter of fact they base the doctrine of purgatory on Bible.
1. Cor. 3:14-15. "14 If anyone's work which he has built on [it] endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
So, it's all about interpretation of the Bible...
Thank you for the fun side interpretations of Santa, but what about the idea that one has to "earn" the presents? (or they may get just a lump of coal) I think thats the part I have the most problems with.
I think, that as with most traditions, one has to evaluate how the tradition originated, as well as what is commonly practiced today. For example, there are many storis as to how santa originated; such as giving to the poor, giving to the children, someone showing love etc. However, what is practiced today in our culture is much different... pressure to buy for everyone beyond our budget, the commercialism of the dollar, the gimmie-gimmie wish list kids can be encouraged to come up with (I have my children create a "give list" and a SHORT wish list) I guess it still seems that Santa was cleverly created to to replace Christ.
Have much more but need to run...
I don't like the lump of coal thing either (although we gave a bag of it to my grumpy brother-in-law one year as a joke). The whole "be good or else" thing sounds like a certain coercive religion.
And it's bad parenting! Bribes and threats may buy compliance but they do not build character or help kids develop a strong internal compass. Okay, I'll confess I use them more I care to admit. This is a constant parenting challenge that I blame on my fundamentalist upbringing!
Our kids sing all the funky Santa songs, but we reassure them that if Santa is "keeping a list and checking it twice" -- EVERYBODY is listed twice, because we are all both naughty and nice.
Like with everything else, when something doesn't fit with our values, we're frank . . .
A recent case: Our son begged for a pair of camouflage jeans. I told him that soldiers wearing camo are being killing and being killed in Iraq even as we speak, and that it makes me very sad to think about it. Did he really want camo? He said yes, but "some other time." I can live with that.
Your concerns about commercialism are shared by many of us, and there are great resources online for simplying. The Center for the New American Dream is one of my favorites.
Thanks for getting me thinking about these things, hp3. . . we need to get started on making gifts! In November I'll post a thread over on extoots for everyone to share their favorite Christmas traditions.
I haven't been posting for a long time and then I realized that I needed to again. I am glad because once again someone wrote wrote what I am feeling. Our children have missed yet another birthday party of their cousins. It is never said that it is because we have chosen to raise them outside this faith, but I often wonder.
Do the children have to feel the "shunning", too?
Say a prayer for the children, too.
Thank you for sharing anon and linda. Its not easy for any of us, and its validating to hear others exdperiences... We can learn from each other what has helped to grow and move forward.
I am so tired of my family letting me down... keeping me outside of "family" because I am not part of thier church family. I dont even tell my youngest child that she has cousins... I have spent the past 10 years chosing close friends to be "family" And I tell my children that 'family' means always being there for each other, supporting each other and loving each person for who God created them as. Blood is not thicker than water. Im not opposed to believing that way, but Ive not experienced that in the least... My brother let me down again today. The same one who has shunned me before, should I be surprised? Why doesnt it hurt any less? why do I open the door to allow it to happen again? But yet in the same breath he will casually invite me over for coffee. Im sick of superficial relationships. But its easier to just fade away and ignore him than to bring up a discussion because I already know his upbringing and logic and the outcome, and it would be a waste of time... Maybe I feel obligated to 'try it one more time, just to be sure' I dont feel its Christian like to shun them, or treat him as he treats me. But I cant beat a dead horse either, I have to be allowed to move on at some point too right? My dad is the same way. I dont even call him dad anymore. But it hurts to not be loved unconditionally for who I am. I know that feeling anon and I extend empathy and a hug.
On the bright side, which I always try to find :p Several years ago, I realized that I would stop looking to my biological father and family for unconditional love (although the yearning for what could and should be sometimes surfaces) but then I look again to God the father, God MY father. He is everything I have ever wanted and more. He created me, made me in His image, watches over me as I grow and learn, guides me and teaches me, and loves me unconditionally. What a lucky little girl I was to have such a Father! And what a lucky grown woman I am to still have such a Father to lean on! Amen.
Free: thank you for reminding me that old wounds can still be used again for good, for reminding me where my eyes should be looking; upward.
Hi Linda,
I understand about how your husband's family treats you. I know, I promise.
Also imagine if your own husband treated you that way too?
Imagine being married to a legalistic Apostolic Lutheran who wants to go to his parent's church and is angry with you for over 15 years because you won't "let him" go to his parent's church? (but when no one is looking he does all of the terrible sinful stuff of someone who was never raised in a church)
Imagine that you never measured up, and he used scare tactics and death threats to try to keep you inline and screams condemnation at you when he thinks you might slip up? Even if you hadn't "yet"? (it will get to the point that you wish you could die, or you look for help from others)
Then he doesn't admit to his own sin and tells other people that he is innocent? I had forgiven him over and over for years even when he hadn't even asked for forgiveness. I sucked it up, and kept trying to keep him happy, and pretend that it didnt happen. Then I got yelled at by the pastor when I told him that I can't live with someone who never forgives and hurts the people he is supposed to be protecting. I had to leave the church because I could not feel loved where the pastor yells at the very people who come to him crying for help.
My brother goes to the church too and he yelled at me too when my husband was arrested. I did not have a fight with my husband. He was yelling at me and I tried to leave and he wouldn't let me. I couldn't take the abuse from my husband or the church anymore. I can make it stop.
Dear Anon whose husband is abusive:
I hope you are running as fast as you can. This man is not following the vows of his wedding nor is he following this church.
I recently attended a wedding from this church.
The vows do include the man is the head of house, but he is to be loving to his wife. The bible does define love. Love is never rude, love is always kind. He does not sound loving.
The minister should not be bashing you nor should your family.
Quickly get out!!
Please run and keep going. Go to a traditional mainstream church and talk with a minister. Make sure the minister has gone to the seminar where they are taught how to counsel.
God's Peace to you!
Well this is kind of my journal, so I want to add an entry about a dream I had last night.
I was at the oalc church I used to attend, but I was up with the preachers and I was supposed to preach. I was wearing my long, hunter green Christmas dress and a string of white pearls. I just knew that no one would listen to a word I had to say because all they would see or hear was that white pearl necklace. I knew I needed to reference scripture to anything I said and encourage people to read thier bibles. The preachers took my notes and hid them with smirks and they were angry with me for "leading thier flock astray" The church was full and everyone was watching this. I was told I shouldnt have to have notes that referenced scriptures I should just be able to preach, IF the Holy Spirit gave me words. Well I only had a general idea of what I was going to say anyhow, but I dont have the bible memorized and I felt the scripture references to anything I said was what was most important, but of course they disagreed. So I said, ok, I just need a moment to pray then. Then I started to speak, but I dont remember what I said except to encourage the people to read thier bibles cover to cover. A preacher grabbed another microphone and started talking loudly into it, over the top of me and I wasnt sure what to do. I remember saying that I was sad they were not hearing my words but only seeing my necklace and then about half the congregation got up and walked out. They said my necklace and therefore ME was a discrace to God and I was confusing thier people by bringing the bible into anything. I cried but kept talking about a balance between God's wrath and God's love. THe preacher kept talking louder, trying to drown out my words and I knew in my heart all I could do was quietly showt these people Jesus so I kept softly crying and softly speaking about the bible. I never felt overpowered or drowned out, nor shunned, nor rejected nor a discrace. Instead I felt so much sadness at what I could not give them, and a deep comfort for my soul. I awoke with tears on my pillow and a feeling like an angel was holding me.
btw to the anons who responded to the abuse, may I forward your posts to Facing Truth? Or you may feel free to visit there also, but thats the only reference I have. That is a website that has a current posting regarding abuse and Im sure they would love to hear it too.
Ive looked at this site and similar ones, it looks like there more for making fun of the OALC then anything else, is that what they are for, or are they suppost to support those that have left?
I can tell you this site is absolutely not for "making fun of the OALC". There are many wonderful people there, and making fun of anyone is obviously not Christian behavior.
This site is for support-- support for those who have left, those who are struggling with whether to leave, and those with doubts.
Leaving was a very lonely thing for many of us, and this site is to help others who are searching to find the loving, Christian support they need.
God's Blessings to all, and Happy New Year!
to anon: In no way do I mean to make fun of the OALC nor anyone else, and from the time I have spent conversing with others here I do not believe anyone else (the regulars anyhow) have that intent. Im sure there could be exceptions, but I dont believe thats the rule here.
I need a place to sort through my jumble of emotions and thoughts, somewhere where I can just get it out and move on and people will understand without me having to relive and explain dynamics I myself often do not understand.
There is still so much love and sadness for those I have left behind and I cherish thier souls so much it is an ache in my chest. I have frustrations and a range of emotions from all extremes, but I do not feel mockery nor like making fun of anyone. I try to give the same respect for indivualism and I would like to receive.
to left the oalc, thank you for your response as well.
With all the discussions going on about the history of Laestadianism and the continuous splits since his death, (yet the denail of these numerous splits) and the insistance of exclusive rights to heaven etc. Im not surprised I had this recent dream, but wanted to share.
I was in a vast library trying to research a particular, very old country. I think it was Elbonia (you know from Dilbert) When I first found the section for this country's history, there was an entire bookshelf of books. I selected one, and as I started to read I noticed that books from the bookshelf kept disappearing, even the one in my hand. Soon there were only two books on this country. I was very curious as to why this history was disappearing, so in the way we can in dreams, I decided to time travel back to this old, old country and investigate.
When I got there (not sure how of course) the weather was snowy and very cold. I found a group of people and sort of melted in with thier group. I tried to be a quiet observer, but it quickly became apparant to them that I was different. I was very confused as to how they could know because we were all bundled up so well, and all identical, but somehow they did.
One of them pulled me aside and told me I had better run, leave while I could. I told them I was searching for answers and didnt know where else to go. They told me I wasnt safe there, so I needed to find somewhere, then left.
I stayed on the edges of the group as they wandered, observing and trying to hide myself so they wouldnt see I was different. But whispers and stares started... I was so curious how they knew???
I noticed they appeared to know very little, about themselves or thier own country. They seemed limited to those two books that were left. Why didnt they know? Why didnt they ask? There was so much I wanted to point out to them, that was right under thier noses.
They turned on me and I started to be afraid, so I ran. They followed me, and soon everyone was looking for me. I dont know what would have happened if they found me, but it would have been bad.
The one who had warned me when I first arrived (or maybe one of thier friends) found me in a dark alley and told me to follow. We went into the woods into a very simple, but nice tree house. There were a few people there, all appearing friendlier than the rest, yet determined to get me away.
I asked them "how can you tell I am different? What is it about me that makes me different? I am so confused"
They all looked at me and one another, like they couldnt believe I didnt know, and didnt want to be the one to tell me. Finally one of them stepped forward, and glanced at me, then the floor and said...
"well, you see... you are... a human"
WHAT????????????????????????
I was amazed and couldnt even think of a response. I asked for a mirror; none available. I tried explaining that we all had eyes, ears, nose, arms and legs etc, but they each refused to look at themselves and certainly wouldnt compare me to any of the others standing in the room. They glanced, but couldnt look for too long. The glances became longer and I could see some doubt in thier eyes as they tried not to look at each other, refusing to look at themselves.
Then there was noise outside and everyone panicked. It was THEM. I was shoved up into a secret attic and told to be quiet or I would surely die. THEY pounded on doors, floors and walls trying to find me.
I flew away and woke up thinking "I AM HUMAN" Thats what made me different?
Anyhow, Im not going to elaborate into my interpretation because Im not so good and its individual, but I found it very interesting...
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