Interesting conversation
Here's part of a post under a previous topic. Wanted to move it up front so it'd get seen. I certainly have experienced this in my interactions with my family still in "the church". They believe they'll be saved because of their "forgiveness of sins" in "the church" (assuming they've asked forgiveness recently enough). They're still worried we might not be saved since we left because we no longer have the "forgiveness of sins".
I have really been bothered about something, I recently spoke to my sister-in-law & we ended up talking about "the church" & so I asked her to be up front with me if I asked her some questions & thankfully she was willing so I shared with her my heart for her people & asked if she ever wanted more as far as christianity goes & she said no. Then I asked her if she were to die is she completely confident she is going to heaven & she said 100% I said why? because you know Christ as your savior or because your sins are forgiven & she answered so fast I am still amazed that she was going to heaven because her sins are forgiven. Wow. Also I asked her if she felt that other church going people could be saved & she said well they preach that there is only one true church so I would have to say no. I said that means the church of Christ!! Not a building....I wanted so badly to get into her head & dig more but she has no desire to learn more or for growth she said my mom& dad went all their lives & they were good moral people...but there are lots of good moral people out there but more importantly do they know our Jesus?? I am doing the bible study "A woman after Gods own heart" And it really is opening my eyes to what we are supposed to be as christians, after Gods own heart do we truly know what that is? Complacancy is not good enough, just being good people is not good enough, being Apostolic is not good enough!!! Again I quote "my people perish for lack of knowledge." Obeying God is a life change & not half way. Look at Saul, he was a powerful king chosen by God himself! And still he didn't obey with all of his heart only partly & God took his kingdom away & Chose little David instead, David did not lead a great testimony in a lot of ways but he was a man after His fathers heart & always went to Him as we should. Anyway enough of my goings on but pray for our people. Until next time may God bless all of us. In Christ, BoysinHeaven
posted by Left the OALC at 4:04 PM
61 Comments:
Hi ~ That is so sad, and yet such a reality! Fortunately there are many who are seeing the "truth and the light" and no longer going down that road in our church. ( I think that you go to the same branch I do, but maybe you are referring to a different one?)
Hopefully our childrens' generation will have different stories to tell.
God Bless you.
I wanted to add a few verses to this coversation that I read a few days ago & thought it spoke volumes. Col.2:6-9 "As ye have recieved Christ Jesus the Lord, so ye walk in Him. Rooted & built up in Him, & stablishing in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy & vain deceit, after the tradition of man, after the rudiments of the world, & not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Amen. With love in Christ,Boysin Heaven
Thank you for the above statement. Praise God and may we be a reflection of Him in whatever we do in life. We all need to get into the WORD and ask, seek, and knock and it WILL be revealed. That is a promise from our heavenly Father.
I wanted to encourage God only knows, as you sound sort of sad. I hope & pray that you are still a child of God. As He is the great & wonderful physician to whom we can always run to. How awesome is that? I guess it sort of sounds like you left the OALC but I hope you haven't left Christ & that you know Him as a personal Jesus. God be with you. In Christ Boysinheaven
i really don't get it but i think it is very rude to talk bad about them even though i am not a member, i know a few people and they are very kind and helpful!
This has to be the oddest website I've ever seen! What is with this church/religion (whatever it is) that is causing so much bitterness? Why is it so hard to leave a church?? I would think that if you don't believe the way they do, then just don't go. If they have a problem with it, they have to live with it. But it sounds more like you have a problem with it more than they do! I'm confused, can someone fill me in???
LauraLaura-
Go to oldapostoliclutheran.com if you want to get a clear explanantion as to what we're talking about here. It's similar to being in a cult. It's certainly its own culture. And if you dare to leave it, you are seen as "lost" , probably going to hell, and you're basically shunned.
You say to "just don't go" if you don't believe what they do. Well, its not that easy when it means you have to leave pretty much everything and everybody you know to stand up for your beliefs. Don't judge these people without knowing what they've gone through. They've suffered enough.
Thanks anonymous. I went to the website and read every word. It is definitely an interesting 'cult'. I was a little taken back, though, when I got to the FAQ's and discovered your answer to the rude children: 'They are free to judge and point fingers, call out sin and it is called sharing their faith.' Isn't that what you're doing? Pointing fingers at the cult members? I wish you would tell your story, so I can understand what exactly happened that made you despise them and their ways. I'm also interested in hearing their side of the story. Would you happen to have any contact information for the OALC?
LauraLaura--
oldapostoliclutheran.com is not my website, so if you have questions about the answer there or that person's story, you'll have to go to that section of that website.
As far as pointing fingers, the majority of the people posting here have lived it firsthand, so its not like they are on the outside looking in. They worked through the mental anguish of finding their way out. They are sharing their experiences.
As far as "despise", I am not sure where you got that word. I, nor any of the other ex-oalcers that I've encountered, "despise" any of those still at the oalc. All that I've talked to have family still attending, and we love them dearly. We want them to share the love and actual "God's peace" that can be found in His Word.
If you want to hear a current OALCers story, your best bet would be to go to one of their churches. It is preached to them that the internet usage is a sin, and they usually avoid relationships with those outside the church.
My story? I always knew there were things I didn't agree with that were taught there, but figured the basic doctrine was true. But when I started reading the Bible and comparing it to what was preached, they were not the same. And the Bible tells me that if what my preacher/pastor/priest teaches doesn't agree with His Word, I have to turn away from that teaching.
It was hard, because I knew this meant "breaking it" to my family that still attend that I no longer believed the same way as the OALC. Again, I do not "despise them and their ways". When you have been taught a certain way your whole life, you tend to cling to that teaching, because its all you've ever known. But just because it its all you've ever known doesn't make it true. Unless you can back up what they teach you with the Word of God, you are relying on the wisdom of man rather than the Word of God.
From Jeremiah:
This is what the LORD says:
"Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength
and whose heart turns away from the LORD.
God's peace and blessings to all.
How sad for you. My family is torn apart by material things, not religion, so I think I may be able to understand what you're feeling. I've never heard of such a strong faith as the OALC in which ex-members spend their extra time helping people out of it! It must be terrible. I did not read the word 'despise' in your writing, but I FELT it while I read the other website and the comments posted here. I truly do feel sorry for you and what you live with everyday.
Hello LauraLaura,
Just wanted to respond to your comment "I truly do feel sorry for you and what you live with everyday" so that you aren't feeling bad for me personally. I appreciate your words, but my life has a wonderful, loving new meaning and outlook since leaving and becoming part of a healthy Christian church. But please pray for those still with doubts...
God bless you.
I am so sad and sickened by this work of evil.
Out of curiousity, I went looking for this site as I had heard it existed but I didn't expect to be so...I don't even know the word. My hands are shaking. I think of all the ones seeking for the truth, salvation that come upon this site which feeds them such evil and attempts to create doubt.
All of you out there, please do not listen to these people, I know who they are and with all my heart I'm warning you to stay away from this site.
If you have questions, concerns, please come to our church and talk to somebody. I and everybody else will welcome you with open arms!
Anon above at 4:26--
If one is searching for the truth, look no further than His Word! Don't go looking for a church to give you their spin on His Word; don't assume that the church you are in is preaching His Word. Look first at His Word, and find a church that preaches it. And continue to compare what is preached there with the Word. Until you do that, you're not following Christ, you're following man. And the Bible very clearly teaches us that this is not ok.
God Bless you in your journey to Him.
Anon 4:26
Who are "these people"?
To anon 4:26
I appreciate your invitation--"If you have questions, concerns, please come to our church and talk to somebody. I and everybody else will welcome you with open arms!"
Where is the location you attend?
To any person who wants to go to an OALC church and find out for themselves wether it is a cult or not, just tell me what area you live in and I will give you the address of the nearest church. The previous poster was correct, there are many who despise members of the church for reasons that they distort to their own end. They claim that members are taught to shun the world and those who have left the church. That is clearly ridiculous since we have to make a living with "the world" and work with and for them every day. We do try to limit contact with some, especially as relates to things that we hold to be sinful. If we openly and freely show love and friendship to those who are living an openly sinful life, what kind of an example whould that set for the young ones? Some of the posters are children of those who have seperated themselves from the church for various reasons; they wanted certain things to change and they were not succesful in their attempts and so they left. Some of these families are so fractured that they now have several different points of view within the family as relates to the "correct' walk of a christian, and they do not agree about much. If anything. Some of this is what you see playing out on these pages, families split over one issue, and soon none of the family agrees with their own kin.
We are different! We accept that. But others seem to have a hard time with our uniqueness, and do all they can to find fault. And there is plenty to find. There are none of us that are perfect, though we strive to be as humble, honest, forgiving etc, as we can be. But none of us choses Christ, he chose us and for that we are thankful.
Much is said about the forgiveness of sins. And some make light of how we refer to the same places over and over again, especially when talking to those from outside of the church. There is a reason for this. Some chapters are better at explaining why we believe the way we do, so we quote them...a lot. We are not trying to covert those who are unwilling and convinced in their own faith. But we do want those that are lost to know what God expects of us. And NO! You can not go into your closet and pray for forgiveness and salvation and recieve it. Jesus said to the apostles behind the closed doors, "As my Father has sent me, so send I you...that whosoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven." It really "sounds" like Jesus meant for men to be able to forgive sin in His name.
One of the apostles wanted to emphasize how important a chuch was in a christians life. He said "and how shall they believe if they do not hear, and how shall they hear if it is not preached, and how shall it be preached if there is no church" {not exact words}. So we can not make up our own religion and stay at home and hold our own services in solitude, we not others but especially a preacher.
Until next time.
PP
Why is it such a stretch for us to believe that the same holds true today. We certainly are not worthy of such a responsibility. And we do not accept that duty lightly. But he told man to do it, so who are we to argue. No, we do not think we are equal to Jesus or the apostles. But what he said and meant seems clear. He was teaching the disciples (students?). When they "graduated" they became apostles (teachers?), and were to spread the good news across the land. That is a very simplified version of what I believe, and I am convinced accuratly portays what is taught in our churchs. We are encouraged to read the bible, though some say otherwise. They are wrong and they know it. We do not hold Laestadius above the Bible. but we do believe he was a very gifted preacher and prophet.
pp-
"And NO! You can not go into your closet and pray for forgiveness and salvation and recieve it."
Again, the Bible does not support you on this, and neither do Luther's teachings. I don't think anyone is debating with you that your sins can't be forgiven the Laestadian way. The Bible does seem to indicate they can in the verse you quote.
However, other verses clearly indicate there are other ways as well, including praying directly to God. Until you study your Bible and learn those other verses as well, its useless to debate this point. You'll always keep going back to the OALC thinking that only they have the "forgiveness of sins." Learn the rest of what the Bible has to say about forgiveness, then come back to discuss it.
I agree with you wholeheartedly about the need to belong to a church. I know I am too weak to do it on my own. But please note, that quote is talking about hearing "the Word" at church. Not Laestadius interpretation of it.
And it's fine for you to use the same verses over and over again in helping to teach others about Christ, but don't pick only the ones that support your Laestadian ways. Learn it all. It's beautiful.
It doesn't "seem to", it is quite clear. Just as is James 5/ 16 to the end. But thanks for at least that concession. I think it is clear that a striving christian takes a some what different path to making things right than does someone who has lived an ungodly life.
And by the way, what are our "Laestadian ways"?
There is nothing that you can name that we believe that you and I can not find a verse that touches on that topic. We would certainly disagree about wether or not it was correct, but you would know what place I would likely turn to for my explanation. It is not as if we make it up out of nothing. At least give us credit for that.
Laestadius's sermons (interpretation) are read at the beginning of our service and may or may not be referred to again through the rest of the service. We use his 200 year old sermons as a reference and guide for our better understanding. We do not hold him or his writings to be a substitue for the Bible
I believe you and many others are aware of this, and like to use it as a tool to try to do...whatever.
Luther is a good source also, but with some of his writings you have to be very careful because he came from being a preist to being the leader of a large and popular revolt against the catholic church. His belief system changed drastically in those many months and years. He did not believe the same at the end as he did at the beginning. His last writings are by far the best, and the safest for most of us.
May the peace of God be with you.
pp
PP-
Please be careful. "These people" will ALWAYS find something wrong with what you write, no matter how much it makes sense to you. I know, and understand, that you're trying to reach out to them, so they may have the grace to believe as well. It's frustrating and it causes a lot of us to lose sleep at night. However, you know, as well as I, that we cannot give them the true and living faith. They cannot understand, and will continue to find wrong in what we believe, until God opens the door and shines that beautiful light in their hearts. I can see that many of them have the true desire to be saved, yet lack the true feeling in their hearts.
They talk a lot about how our faith is based on feelings, and man's word. Look from their point of view; I can completely understand what they see by that. It isn't exactly a feeling, it's a complete frame of mind and soul. How are they to know that? They cannot experience it. You, nor I, could possibly explain it so they can understand. We cannot explain any 'feelings' that someone else cannot feel.
So, PP, my advice to you is to stay away from here. It's what they want, something to prove that we are so narrowminded that we cannot see everyone's point of view. They don't realize that what we have is so precious, we don't want to see any other way. And they can't. Please, PP, forget this site. Just pray. Pray that God will guide them, so they may see their hearts.
I've made that journey, PP, and it is so scary.
anon3:55
I certainly know that you are correct, and I should stay away. But I find it hard when there are a few that drop by this blog and it is clear they have an open mind and are searching. And then they are warned away with lies and half truths. I find it hard to let these distortions go unchallenged, for the sake of those who are searching. And also, because I know some of these who have strayed, and I have a special feeling for them,,or at least the person they used to be.
But yes, I will try to stay away. Though it will be difficult, knowing as I do that they will go to great lengths to distort what I say and not answer the questions I pose that they have no answer for. That pattern has been repeated often...and will continue.
Yes, I will ...and have... prayed for them. I will continue to that. as God gives strength.
May the grace and peace of God be with you, fellow traveler.
PP
PP-
I just want to mention before I leave, those who are searching will find their way. Others may tell lies, or half-truths, but if they're truly searching for the living faith, God will lead them. Take comfort in knowing that praying and your example will show the 'searchers' the way.
There have been people I grew up with, was friends with, and family that have strayed, and are probably on this site. It's painful and it's scary to lose them in that way, but as long as they breathe, there still is hope.
May God keep you in His care.
To pp and anon 3:55;
Thank you for coming here and talking...
I know that maybe you feel like all ex-oalcers are angry and spreading lies and half-truths.
But I left, and I still love those there, including you.
I didn't leave because I couldn't deal with the rules there, etc.
I just came to realize that its really not about how I feel. It's about knowing what He says in His Word. And acting on it.
A blessed New Year to ALL.
Because you haven't felt it. I will say yet since there still is hope.
If the "it" is the wonderful feeling of having the burden of your sins lifted, I've certainly felt it both at the OALC and since.
What I'm trying to say is that whether you go to the OALC and "ask forgiveness" or not, He has paid the price in full. How you feel it is irrelevant. It's what you do with that information that matters.
It IS wonderful to feel that burden lifted, to feel His love. But if you don't use that feeling and do something productive with it to SPREAD His Word, share HIS love, then it was fruitless except for making you feel better temporarily.
His blood paid it all, not our tears. He expects us to thank Him by continuing to actively learn and spread His Word. And love others as He loves us.
"It" has nothing to do with having sins forgiven. I don't know why most people think that. "It" is the true and living faith in one's heart. People in the OALC are NOT the only people who ask forgiveness. Forgiveness is felt when one can silently, or verbally, forgive and forget what another has done. Just because after each sermon there is a moment when members ask forgiveness doesn't mean it's the only time they can, or do.
When one can forgive and forget, they spread their love for the others' SOULS in a way that others can see. That's called example.
If you don't care how other's feel about your forgiveness, don't expect others to care about forgiving you. Remember? The feeling is irrelevant.
Just another thing. If this church/faith, the OALC, wasn't as strong as it was, you would've been on with your life long ago. You KNOW there's something there, youjust can't grasp it. Because of this, you lash out, proclaiming your love for the poor OALC members left in the cult. How wrong they are to do this, and that, and everything they say or do goes against their faith.
Remember there's a fine line between love and hate. Most people can see it but the one who feels it.
The Hallelujahs, and Amens, and Praise the Lords are simply words to try to convince others how strong you believe. You don't need to do that. They can see for themselves by your EXAMPLE.
Whether you want me to or not, I will pray for you. That one day you will see WHY Jesus came here, WHY we need to bear our own little cross, and WHY we are the way we are. You DON'T understand, so don't say you do. If you did, you wouldn't be where you are now.
"If you don't care how other's feel about your forgiveness, don't expect others to care about forgiving you. Remember? The feeling is irrelevant."
I never said I don't care how others feel; simply that your actions are more important-- which is what I believe you are saying by "When one can forgive and forget, they spread their love for the others' SOULS in a way that others can see. That's called example." When I have sinned against/with someone, it is certainly important to me to do my best to make things right with them by asking their forgiveness. And I want that forgiveness from them so that we can continue a Christian walk together. But I think we agree that it's His blood paying the debt.
I DO understand how things are in the OALC. I'm glad you are praying for me; I am praying for you as well.
"Just another thing. If this church/faith, the OALC, wasn't as strong as it was, you would've been on with your life long ago."
I am "ON" with my life. I've never felt closer to Christ and His love. And I'm reaching out to those who are searching for answers the way I was. I am happy for you and those who are secure in your faith there. People here aren't trying to lead you away. We're reaching out to those who know it isn't the right way for them personally to best know Jesus.
"The Hallelujahs, and Amens, and Praise the Lords are simply words to try to convince others how strong you believe."
My church is a very conservative, Bible based church. We're not into that stuff either.
I believe the OALC means well when it tries to keep one from ever considering another church-- it's all they've ever known, and I believe they are sincerely looking out for peoples' souls with their stance. But it's not ok to speak ill of every other church (eg-- calling them "dead faith")on the planet when you haven't been there.
There is living faith outside the OALC.
God's love to you and all.
I have one more comment on your last lines there.
The OALC is not speaking ill of anyone. Dead faith is dead faith. There is such a thing.
And yes, there is living faith outside the OALC. The doctrine that the OALC preaches is the one and only living faith. That does not mean that only the ones in the church have living faith. Nor does it mean that everyone in there has living faith. It's not a sole building, or group, it's each individual person.
As for the OALC members not knowing what others believe, you are so wrong. Many, if not most, have been elsewhere sometime in their life. The go back because they realize what they give up by leaving.
Or they leave and don't come back (AKA ones on this site) because either they never had the faith to begin with, or committed the unforgiveable sin. (Yes, there is such thing)
The part that frustrates me is that you cannot admit that people can leave the OALC and still have living faith. Your comments contradict themselves.
"The doctrine that the OALC preaches is the one and only living faith. That does not mean that only the ones in the church have living faith."
&
"Or they leave and don't come back (AKA ones on this site) because either they never had the faith to begin with, or committed the unforgiveable sin. (Yes, there is such thing)"
I believe I found the living faith when I left. I'm not saying it can't be found there. I have full faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior. I know I am better able to serve Him now.
Also, I believe your comment "As for the OALC members not knowing what others believe, you are so wrong. Many, if not most, have been elsewhere sometime in their life. The go back because they realize what they give up by leaving." is really stretching the reality of the matter. If they've been elsewhere, it's likely to go to a "worldly" person's event (wedding, etc.). Never in many years there did I hear a preacher or anyone else tell someone it was ok to check out another church. And if they went to a worldly event, they likely experienced things that "offended" them like music, etc that are against the OALC ways, and therefore reinforced their belief that it wasn't ok to be there. I visited many churches before I finally found a church where I believed I was at the right one-- where they preached only the Word, and didn't have other practices that I wasn't comfortable with. And I'm not saying it's the only right one, because there are many I still haven't visited. But when I compare what I'm being taught there to the Bible, it agrees.
But your comment "Or they leave and don't come back (AKA ones on this site) because either they never had the faith to begin with, or committed the unforgiveable sin." is a statement you really have no right to make.
God bless us all and keep us in His loving care.
to anonymous 4:03 specifically--
please tell us what the unforgiveable sin is, I want to hear what that is from you...
thank you..
I have a couple comments for PP and anon friend. IF you have the true faith like you say, then being in here shouldn't be scary at all. For there is nothing here that can take that away from you...2Tim.1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Also, if your church has the "one true living faith" then you should be here as much as time permits, for isn't that what the job of a Christian is? To spread the gospel?
"for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people".
Futhermore, discussion is good. It makes us think and pray and read our Bibles more.
God bless you all.... finnomer
Esau committed the unforgiveable sin.
I am not afraid for myself. But it is a little scary when people ignore those places in the bible that indicate the opposite of what they profess.
A) Many are called, but few are chosen.
B) Straight is the gate and narrow is the way.
And many others similar. Even Martin Luther said (paraphrasing)
If you seek Christ, first seek his congregation, for outside of the right congregation there is no Christ and no salvation...only other poisonous doctrines.
Hi anon 8:29pm... Sure many are called... I'm not sure on the numbers, but if you count up all the people who call themselves Christians in this world, and compare that to the total population, I think the number would still be few.
Don't you thing those who are "called" would be those who are or were christians.
Or how should we explain this:
"If the righteous scarcly be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear."
Anonymous 8:29...here are some additional bible verses (from the King James version) you may find helpful.
Ephesians Ch 2, vs. 8-10: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans Ch 11"6": And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Luke Chapter 5 verse 20: when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
I believe this is the one unforgiveable sin mentioned earlier: Luke Ch 12 verse 10:And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Romans Ch 3, vs 28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Matthew Ch 7, vs. 1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Luke Ch 6, vs 37: Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
Mark Ch 9 vs 40: For he that is not against us is on our part.
Luke Ch 9 vs 50: And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Keep reading the Bible!
God's Peace,
Why is there no one who will even attempt to explain away the words of Martin Luther? Some of these statements from the Bible and other holy books go right to the heart of what we are discussing....and most will not address those that so clearly explain what the writer meant.
This is not a matter of you or I being right or wrong. It is a matter of our souls salvation. We can not ignore any warning or possible clue to what God expects of us. And the Bible is not reading material for those who do not think.
Jesus said " It is hidden from the wise and the prudent and revealed unto babes." We must be certain we are finding our way with certain knowledge, not basing our salvation (or lack there of) on our feelings.
Not sure what you're asking... Explain AWAY the words of Luther? OR explain the words of Luther?
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (NOte... not the words of Martin Luther.)
Anon 9:29. Here are further words of Martin Luther. by the way, I'm trying to find your quotation. Do you have any further info on where in Luther's teachings those quotes are?
What Would Martin Luther Say?
An Excerpt From Martin Luther's Spiritual Last Will & Testament
CONFESSION CONCERNING CHRIST'S SUPPER (1528), Part 3
by Martin Luther, 1483-1546
Translation by Rev. Robert E. Smith
From the German text in:
DR. MARTIN LUTHERS WERKE: KRITISCHE GESAMTAUSGABE.
(Weimar: Herman Boehlaus Nachfolger, 1909), pp.499-500.
Because I see that the mobs are always growing, the number of
errors are always increasing and Satan's rage and ruin have no
end, I wish to confess with this work my faith before God and the
whole world, point by point. I am doing this, lest certain people
cite me or my writings, while I am alive or after I am dead, to
support their errors, as those fanatics, the Sacramentarians and
the Anabaptists, have begun to do. I will remain in this
confession until my death (God help me!), will depart from this
world in it, and appear before the Judgment Seat of our Lord Jesus
Christ.
So that no one will say after my death, ``If Luther was alive, he
would teach and believe this article differently, because he did
not think it through sufficiently,'' I state the following, once
and for all: I, by God's grace, I have diligently examined these
articles in the light of passages throughout the Scriptures. I
have worked on them repeatedly and you can be sure that I want to
defend them, in the same way that I have just defended the
Sacrament of the Altar.
No, I'm not drunk or impulsive. I know what I am saying and
understand fully what this will mean for me as I stand before the
Lord Jesus Christ on the Last Day. No one should think that I am
joking or rambling. I'm serious! By God's grace, I know Satan
very well. If Satan can turn God's Word upside down and pervert
the Scriptures, what will he do with my words -- or the words of
others?
The following is a comforting passage from Martin Luther on his definition of faith:
"Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream
is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by
good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they
speak and hear much about faith. ``Faith is not enough,'' they
say, ``You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.''
They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working,
creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, ``I
believe.'' That is what they think true faith is. But, because
this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything
from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn't come from this
`faith,' either.
Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives
new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits,
our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't
stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good
works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many
words.
Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of
God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it.
Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy,
joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The
Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you
freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve
everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who
has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to
separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from
fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard
against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough
to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools.
Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without
faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do."
God's Peace!
I'd like to make a comment on these two things that someone posted:
1. "Esau committed the unforgiveable sin"
and
2. "Don't you thing those who are "called" would be those who are or were christians.
Or how should we explain this:
"If the righteous scarcly be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear."
first... we have the 9th Chapter of Romans to explain to us that Esau's sin represents the Gentiles and that would be all of us who are not JEWS. We are those that this chapter refers to as:
"And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God"
That whole chapter clearly defines the buying back of "Esau" on the cross. Then it explains how salvation has been brought to the Gentiles BECAUSE the JEWS rejected it. Those who did not seek righteousness (like the JEWS did).
God is merciful. He is gracious. He is in the business of reconciling the world to himself. That is His specialty. That is His accomplishment on the cross. He did not forget about Esau, but rather WENT TO THE CROSS FOR HIM.
Also for the "Judas's".
That 2nd above is referring to who will escape TRIALS in this life. Please keep the word of God in its context! We must back up a few verses and see what the topic of discussion is! We read: "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you"
Judgement begins in the house of the Lord and the judgement is RIGHTEOUSNESS for all who will believe. God desires MERCY. His Judgement is not fearful, unless of course, we reject His free grace and choose our own filthy works over His.
That is the ONLY time we should fear what the word says. Peter is merely warning us of the same thing Jesus taught "In this world you will have trouble, but behold I have overcome the world".
Peter also is speaking tenderly, not self-righteously, to those who will face trials of life without Christ... Because even IN Christ the trials here are difficult.
I remind you, God's people, do not portray our loving Father as though He were a harsh and impatient character. His character is given as an exact representation in Christ and in Christ the only harshness I have ever found was toward the Pharisee religion... and toward those who shoo away the children who can teach us more than we could ever learn sitting in church. Because children BELIEVE by FAITH. Maturity seems to steal that precious gift.
"earnestly contend for the FAITH"
God bless!
BH
Then, BH, you should fear that you'll reject His free grace. Yes, God is merciful. But He's not that merciful.
Persecution is near. When it comes, watch who is persecuted.
May God be merciful to you.
Anonymous 1:22. More verses from King James Bible
Eph. 2, vs 4-8: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
And 1 John Ch 4, vs. 7-21:
7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
[8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
[9] In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
[10] Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
[11] Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
[12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
[13] Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
[14] And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
[15] Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
[16] And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
[17] Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
[18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
[19] We love him, because he first loved us.
[20] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
[21] And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
I love the saying here, "perfect love casteth out fear.....He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
Also Luke 10, 25-37:
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
[26] He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
[27] And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
[28] And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
[29] But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
[30] And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
[31] And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
[32] And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
[33] But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
[34] And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
[35] And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
[36] Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
[37] And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
God's Peace (keep reading the Bible!)
Thanks ex-minneapolis, I do read the bible. I am a little amused though, that the verses you chose have nothing to do with what I had said earlier, yet you directed them at me. Care to explain?
Jesus explains that persecution WILL come against Him-NOT US- when we come to faith.
In fact, the scriptures tell us something is WRONG if we are not being persecuted for our beliefs in the mighty and glorious grace of Christ Jesus. If we are being persecuted for anything else in our “religion” besides the wondrous work of Christ, then we should probably step back and examine what we have believed.
The cross of Christ was a display of MERCY. Unlimited bountiful flowing non stop MERCY. DOUBLE the amount that was actually needed to redeem the world! This is proven in:
Isaiah 40:
Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
Some say: “God is not THAT merciful”. But I turn your eyes to this verse… he has paid DOUBLE for all our sins… That’s incredible.
Martin Luther once said “let your sins be strong, but let the grace of God be stronger”.
No measuring instrument has ever been able to find the other end of the grace and mercy of God. It is not possible.
The “God of wrath” was present in the crucifixion and all his wrath went on JESUS so that we could be spared. There is no longer wrath. The penalty has been satisfied. Who can neglect this grace? Who can neglect so great a salvation? We are not “sinners in the hands of an angry God”.
Rather, we are a world reconciled to God through the Cross of Christ. Every person on this earth has been redeemed. Every last one. John 3:16.
The Lord is merciful and full of compassion and is no stranger to the heart of a wounded one who spent too much time under the instruction of man and “man’s” interpretations of scriptures. He can transform the one who goes to Him for instruction. It is the CORRUPTING of the gospel that brings us under labor and struggle. It is the REVEALING of TRUTH that brings us rest and freedom and joy and the knowledge that our sins are GONE as far as the east is from the west and God will not remember them.
I am SO grateful that today I can say that I have no fear of "rejecting God's free grace" because I have found that it is not I that holds on to it nor brings it to myself.
I'd instantly be in fear if I thought it was up to me.
What a glorious wonder it has been to discover the goodness of God.
Love BH
Exactly, BH. That's what I said. When persecution comes, watch who is being persecuted.
God is not angry at His children, He's angry at those who, no matter how much He tries to remind them of their sins, continue to praise and honor other gods. God WILL NOT be merciful to those souls.
'Discover the goodness of God'?!? YOU don't discover it. God GIVES it to you. It's by HIS grace that you receive Him, NOT YOURS.
You have no fear of rejecting God's free grace? Oh, you poor lost soul. :'( How God angers when He sees into hearts that believe they can do anything and He will be merciful to them. How they have no cross to bear because Jesus already died for their sins. How it must be a free ride to heaven as long as they only say how much they love Him, but have no way of showing it.
Judgment Day will be a sad day when those who have no fear of His wrath expect to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. When they wonder why He's not as merciful as they claimed. He will tell them, heartbroken, that His 'little ones' have been offended..
To Anonymous:
I posted those verses because you had said "God is merciful, but not that merciful."
What is your definition of Grace? Belief in God and Christ's sacrifice is what has saved us who believe.
I posted verses showing God's love for us and how we are to love others as ourselves and to help our neighbors in trouble.
I wanted to show you a few places in the Bible that it talks about love, and how perfect love casts out fear.
"God is not angry at His children, He's angry at those who, no matter how much He tries to remind them of their sins, continue to praise and honor other gods. God WILL NOT be merciful to those souls."
Regarding your writing above, I get the sense that you think I and others who aren't Laestadians any longer are not God's children anymore.
I want to do God's will. I want to do the right things. I have a conscience...but I also know that my works don't save me. God through his son has saved me.
"How God angers when He sees into hearts that believe they can do anything and He will be merciful to them. How they have no cross to bear because Jesus already died for their sins. How it must be a free ride to heaven as long as they only say how much they love Him, but have no way of showing it."
All the Christians I know who believe the Christ died to save us and that it is Grace alone that saves us do not believe we can do whatever sin we want. We want to do God's will. We want to help others. Do you think we don't have consciences? It is only sociopathic people (antisocial personalities) who have no conscience.
Regarding your comment
'Discover the goodness of God'?!? YOU don't discover it. God GIVES it to you. It's by HIS grace that you receive Him, NOT YOURS.
This is an interesting point: Does this mean that if I am not saved it is God's fault because he didn't give his grace to me?
I don't believe you mean that, but I've always found this issue something to ponder over...what do you think?
I apologize if I have misunderstood your writings. Do you believe that anyone can be saved who is not a member of the OALC (or your particular denomination) and who has also asked for and received forgiveness from a member of your church for all their sins before they die?
God's Peace! (keep reading the Bible, and keep writing - you are interesting!)
p.s. Can you get me the cite or tell me where your quote of Martin Luther is from? I'd like to read it in context with the rest of his sermon. Thank you!
ex-mpls,
I'll take your comment that I'm interesting as a compliment.
Everyone on the face of this earth is God's child. Everyone on this earth has the chance to believe that Jesus has died for our sins. The reason I say that God is not that merciful is because I get the feeling that some people say they worship God, yet are subconsciously worshipping their own deeds. They talk as though they are the nicest, kindest, most thoughtful people and that because of their goodness, God will save them. God wants man to feel like a wretch, to understand the pain and suffering He put His own son through because of man's sin. As I read some of these, it seems as though because Jesus already dies for our sins, man doesn't have to worry about it anymore. Maybe that's how some believe. I don't know.
I don't agree with your statement about sociopathic people not having consciences. No person on this earth has the right to say that. Since one man cannot see into another's soul, they cannot say what is (or isn't) there.
You must have felt that the 'people' I referred to in my previous comment included you. Why is that?
As for the last question you asked, I cannot say. I believe there are a lot of people out there that will be saved. No, I don't believe only people from my church are saved. However, I do believe that the doctrine my church preaches is the true and living faith. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't bother going to that church at all.
I also don't believe that it is God's fault if you are not saved. God calls all His children to Him. It is up to man to accept or reject His calling.
There's a lot to consider, and no one person can explain it all exactly as it should be understood. All questions will be answered on Judgment Day!
I will continue writing as long as we can have a discussion to share (and accept) the differences of each other's faiths.
Also, I want to clarify: Anything I say is simply my belief. I'm not saying it's the ONE way or ONLY way, it's the way I see it.
Anonymous: I suppose I feel like you are talking about me because I have grown up with the LLC and I know that THEY think I'm going to Hell, even though I've accepted Christ as my Savior and believe in God's grace....so I guess I'm kind of hypersensitive about the issue!
And of course you wouldn't keep attending your church if you didn't believe it preached truth.
As far as calling Sociopaths people without consciences, this is actually one of the clinical symptoms of Sociopathy: "Sociopathy is chiefly characterized by something wrong with the person's conscience. They either don't have one, it's full of holes like Swiss cheese, or they are somehow able to completely neutralize or negate any sense of conscience or future time perspective. Sociopaths only care about fulfilling their own needs and desires - selfishness and egocentricity to the extreme." (from Dr. O'Connor lecture notes - N.C. Wesleyan College)
And yes, I do mean it as a compliment that you are interesting.
I do know that by the comments of my LLC relatives, they think that people out of the church who do good works are, I don't know, like bragging about how good they are or something...when in reality, I think they maybe feel that they have been blessed and want to give something back. I tend to be kind of selfish with my time and money, but you know, volunteering makes me feel sort of good. I know that when I was in college, I was so broke that I had to sell my plasma. I got food from a foodshelf. Now that I'm in a little better circumstance, I try to donate a little here and there and do a little volunteering once in a while. It's not because I feel self righteous or proud of myself, though. It's more like when people help each other out (at times you will receive help, at others you will give help), we all get further.
I do think that God wants us to help each other.
God's Peace!
I'm positive God wants us to help one another. And I think that means putting ones time and money where their mouth is. I grew up with the impression that you couldn't "do good things" because you might start considering them to be good deeds, and start to pat yourself on the back. I guess we were good neighbors, but they were just as nice, and supposedly "unbelievers". Hmmm Interesting!!
ab
God wants us to see our sin and feel like a wretch?
Hmmm. I need you to show me where it says that in the bible. I read the bible and all I can find is how he shows us how much he loves us and has forgiven us and how he pleads for us to trust in the fact that He really feels this way about us dear ones that He created.
I have found some anger though...here and there, and they all have something in common..
in one place (the parable of talents) it was when the man with the talent hid his in the ground. In this parable, those who had multiplied their talents (money) as a result of faith and in a sort of "labor together with God" were able to rejoice as they gave back more than they were entrusted with.
The one who hid his talent was not blessed. The reason he hid his talent is because he was so fearful of the nature of God that he didn't want to lose the talent so he hid it in the earth. This is what offended God. The man said "I knew you were an austere (or HARD) man". It is fear and a poor understanding of God that cause people to hide their talents (according to the language of Greek this is not speaking of talents in todays language, but of VALUE or money which can be likened to the gift of salvation). If it is given by an 'angry God' according to the receiver, the value of the talent seems to costly to share and too fearful to lose. This is sort of ironic, because the man who hid the talent had a deep respect of God and a deep understanding of what a wretch he was and how he could really lose this thing.
But the ones who rejoiced in faith knowing that it is not their power that reproduces/multiples the gift, but a higher power, they were free to trust in that power and let it take its course.
God's priority has always been to "go ye into the world" and preach the good news. It is good news. It is not scary news. And God takes so much delight in each person that receives it by faith that he throws a party in heaven. I think it means a great deal to Him to have those "talents" multiplied. He wants MORE souls to believe by faith.
God has never been angry at anyone for rejoicing in the work of the cross of Christ that covers sin or believing that it accomplished exactly that... a sin covering...
pardon... redemption... full and free. In fact, In Hebrews it says something to the effect of a harsh warning if we ever take away from this great act of grace on His part.
Anonymous, I'm so glad for the part in your article that you admit that these are mereley your beliefs for the time being and are not necessarily the truth. I think some of what you said was in haste and I am quite familiar with "type before you think". But I encourage you to spend some time writing down every single time in the bible you can find God or Christ angry... and see what you find is the common denominator.
From the Garden of Eden to today God has been covering the sin of man in loving sacrifice and offering Himself as the one with "healing in his wings".
If you say God still sees our sins and wants us to remember that its "still a problem" then indeed the cross of Christ is foolishness! God forbid such a thought!
"Behold I have overcome the world".
I'm sorry you thought my comments insinuated that we can "live any way we want as long as we say we love him". -even though its true we must LOVE him and praise Him, he lives within the praises of His people!
I do believe that any sin I commit has been paid for though.
I dont see this as "sin all you want". The problem is, for most of us at least, is that we sin MORE than we want to. So then, we must look to Christ who covers us doubly for all our sin, and trust in that covering and rest in the finished work of Christ.
"let us labor to enter into that rest".
I said 'discovered' that God was good because I had always believed much like anonymous that God might be angry with me, and that he was certainly quite angry with the world. I DO agree that HE showed me HIS goodness... and thats when I discovered I was wrong about Him.
May we all have many wonderful discoveries about the attributes of God as He lovingly reveals Himself to us by the power of the Spirit.
LOVE, BH
ex-mpls,
No offense to anyone else, but I think you are one of the few people on this site who have a true heart. I felt no anger from you, or frustration. Simply your thoughts and feelings, with honesty. Thank you for that.
May God bless you richly when persecution comes.
Thank you, Anonymous.
I've had almost 18 years to work on my frustration and grief that leaving the LLC caused me.
Giving up all the relationships was so hard - I still really miss people. Even if I happen to run into them, they don't treat me the same; they treat me like they don't trust me, (they believe I have rejected God's word).
However, I think most people on this website are genuine. As long as we are trying to go forward, to figure out what God wants us to do, then it's ok where we are in our journey. Some people need to get angry; some people are mired in frustration. I know I certainly have my own difficulties.
I have discovered though, that if I direct anger towards someone, I get anger or defensiveness back...and then we don't get into a genunine discussion of beliefs and thoughts, instead we start to argue and it becomes more about winning or losing!
Changing the subject slightly, I don't know if any of you have ever watched that TV show "Touched by an Angel." Some of it was really corny, but at the end of each show, an angel would appear to the person who was struggling and say "God loves you." And I'd always start crying because I realized that is true of me, also. He loves me!
God's Peace
ex-mpls,
I'm sorry you had to go through so much pain to escape your faith. I know what you mean about people not treating you the same. I think a large part of it may be due to the fact that they don't know what to say to you. They may not want to offend you (since you obviously have a different faith now) and aren't sure what you believe, or maybe they feel bad about putting you through the pain. Who really knows?
I am a very tempermental person. I tend to get very angry when trying to explain something from my point of view. I am also very open-minded, although I will not attend any other church but mine. I will accept what others believe, but I love my church too much to miss even one Sunday.
I, like the OALC members, do not have a TV. I don't believe they are a sin, but I'm afraid I'll become too addicted to it and there won't be room for Jesus in my heart. That, too me, seems like it'd become a god. Understand what I'm saying? Not everyone is like that, I'm sure, but that's how I would be, so I don't even waste my money on it.
I think I may go to one of the OALC spring missions to see what it's all about. That way I won't have to miss a Sunday at my church. I'll let you know how they treat me as a stranger.
I'll sign my name, CuriousChristian
Here's the thing about becoming a Christian. You don't really get it until you realize it's not about YOU anymore, it's about HIM. You don't spend all your time on Sunday wallowing around in your guilt and feeling wretched; HE told you he paid it all, and you have to believe Him. That doesn't give you some license to go out and purposely sin. How on earth would that be helping to bring more people to Him? Clearly, that makes no sense, and we must strive to stop sinning. But we will fail, despite all efforts otherwise. This is not to say that repentance and absolution are not important and necessary. It just shouldn't be the entire focus of your service and doctrine.
The OALC service is all about searching for and maintaining your own soul's salvation by seeing your wretchedness and sinfulness, asking forgivenesss, and working harder to avoid sinning again. Obviously, part of a Christian walk must be to try to not sin. But HE has told us over and over, that no matter how hard we try, we will ALWAYS end up failing. Not that we should ever stop trying to live up to His flawless example.
We will never have cried enough and have tried hard enough, to merit salvation. Realizing your wretchedness and bringing you to repentance should NOT be the sole purpose of your church service. Certainly it is an important part. But if you don't walk out of that service with the determination to go spread the Good News about Jesus to those who don't know it yet, you are failing in your Christian duty. Then it's just about you-- worrying about "am I saved?" As long as you believe in Him, He's told you "yes you are-- now go tell more people about me so they can be saved, too!"
Though I know this point of view will probably draw some self righteous OALC rage on myself, I have to say that the OALCers and their services are at the very core, selfish.
I know it sounds totally absurd to say that these people, willing to give up so many earthly pleasures, could be labeled such. But I am referring to their church services and their lives-- all focused on their own salvation, focused on avoiding the world and its temptations. As if huddling together in their protected little world can somehow save them...
If Christ were to be angry, as the OALCer above states, what does it really make sense for the anger to be for? He told us He paid the price for our sins, that not one of us could ever have done it on our own, and to go make more disciples. So will His anger &/or judgment be on those who say "THANK YOU" for my totally undeserved, unearned or merited gift and who go out and try to help spread His Word... or on those who huddle together, not spreading His Word, love, and JOY outside their congregation? (The Parable of the Talents in Matthew addresses this).
My hope and prayer is that it will be on neither, and that we can all learn to love each other and not have this fear of judgment day forever threatened on those that choose to leave the OALC.
Most every conversation between OALCers and EXes always ends with the OALCer trying to say that you left salvation behind you when you left the OALC. Yet they never take the time to read the Bible and find the many places that would help them to see that they are wrong. They stand by what is preached rather than what is written in the Bible.
On judgment day, I believe I know which He'll be going by.
God's peace and Christian love to you ALL.
Yes, Anon, we (The OALCers) ARE selfish when it comes to our soul's salvation.
Anon~
I guess I share the same thing with you, being bit "temporamental" (if thats the right word)... when it comes to expressing my beleifs.
From my heart I can say it is not 'about me' and not about me being "right" so I can be the "winner". Not at all. No. This is about Christ Jesus being great and mighty to save to the uttermost just as He said... and I know dear reader, that you believe this too... but I know for sure that all of us at some point reflect back and realize we have been misled at times and when God opens the scriptures to us, it is sometimes overwhelming trying to explain the amount of "untruth" there is out there about the salvation of our GOD!
The story about the talents helped me a great deal to realize the nature of God and how important MERCY and GRACE are to Him.
I truly shared it for encouragement only, so that we can all be assured that God desires for us to trust in His GOODNESS!
Its wonderful that you are open minded, I believe we all have to be open minded (to an extent) to be "teachable". But I know we all only want God as our teacher, and thru the Holy Spirit God will lead us and direct our thoughts and meditations. I dont want any other teacher, as I'm sure no one here does!
LOVE BH
I thought I'd share an email that I rec'd today... it makes one re-think and recount the blessings we have as Free Children of God!
Dear --------------
It is my sad duty to share with you the news that one of our Gospel for Asia
native missionaries has been kidnapped by terrorists in the Indian state of
Chhattisgarh.
Pastor Subhash, a young single missionary who has already started five mission
stations with 28 believers, was returning home in a taxi with five other
people--but they never reached their destination.
Yesterday, Subhash's parents received a letter that said he had been kidnapped
by an extremist Marxist group known as the Naxalites. The letter did not
mention any ransom or other demand, but did ask that Subhash's parents "help in
order to secure his safe release."
This latest incident comes in a week in which we have received reports of more
than two dozen of our native missionaries and Bible college students being
badly beaten in Bihar and Madhya Pradesh. It also comes as hundreds of
thousands of Hindus are planning to swarm into a tribal area of Gujarat in
order to persecute the Christians living there.
Please pray for Subhash's safe release. Pray also for his parents, that God
will be with them through this ordeal. And please join me and the rest of the
GFA family in praying for all of our persecuted brothers and sisters across
South Asia who are suffering at the hands of anti-Christian elements.
Yours for the lost of Asia,
K.P. Yohannan
Gospel for Asia
Dear "left the OALC"..
There is a website called "watchman.org" which is actually a referral by Beth Moore's living proof site.
It is very informative and may be of interest to you or your readers... anyway I ran across this article about "recognizing spritual abuse" and thought it was very encouraging and enlightening. I thought I would paste it here and maybe you could move it to a new discussion page... It's an extensive article but I think your readers will relate in a big way...
If you prefer not to have this here than you can delete this post. I will not be offended! You are the host!!
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COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE
#1) Authoritarian
The most distinctive characteristic of a spiritually abusive religious system, or leader, is the over-emphasis on authority. Because a group claims to have been established by God Himself the leaders in this system claim the right to command their followers.
This authority supposedly comes from the position they occupy. In Matthew 23:1-2 Jesus said the Scribes and Pharisees "sit in Moses' seat," a position of spiritual authority. Many names are used but in the abusive system this is a position of power, not moral authority. The assumption is that God operates among His people through a hierarchy, or "chain of command." In this abusive system unconditional submission is often called a "covering," or "umbrella of protection" which will provide some spiritual blessing to those who fully submit. Followers may be told that God will bless their submission even if the leadship is wrong. It is not their place to judge or correct the leadership - God will see to that.
#2) Image Conscious
The abusive religious system is scrupulous to maintain an image of righteousness. The organization's history is often misrepresented in the effort to demonstrate the organization's special relationship to God. The mistaken judgements and character flaws of its leaders are denied or covered up in order to validate their authority. Impossibly high legalistic standards of thought and behavior may be imposed on the members. Their failure to live up to these standards is a constant reminder of the follower's inferiority to his leaders, and the necessity of submission to them. Abusive religion is, at heart, legalism.
Abusive religion is also paranoid. Because the truth about the abusive religious system would be quickly rejected if recognized, outsiders are shown only a positive image of the group. This is rationalized by assuming that the religion would not be understood by "worldly" people; therefore they have no right to know. This attitude leads to members being secretive about some doctrines and the inner policies and proceedures of the group. Leaders, especially, will keep secrets from their members. This secrecy is rooted in a basic distrust of others because the belief system is false and can not stand scrutiny.
#3) Suppresses Criticism
Because the religious system is not based on the truth it cannot allow questions, dissent, or open discussions about issues. The person who dissents becomes the problem rather than the issue he raised. The truth about any issue is settled and handed down from the top of the hierarchy. Questioning anything is considered a challenge to authority. Thinking for oneself is suppressed by pointing out that it leads to doubts. This is portrayed as unbelief in God and His anointed leaders. Thus the follower controls his own thoughts by fear of doubting God.
#4) Perfectionistic
A most natural assumption is that a person does not get something for nothing. Apart from the express declarations of salvation by grace through faith God has given in the scriptures, it would be natural to think that one must earn salvation, or at least work to keep it. Thus, in abusive religions all blessings come through performance of spiritual requirements. Failure is strongly condemned so there is only one alternative, perfection. So long as he thinks he is succeeding in his observation of the rules, the follower typically exhibits pride, elitism, and arrogance. However, when reality and failure eventually set in, the result is the person experiences spiritual burnout, or even shipwreck of his faith. Those who fail in their efforts are labeled as apostates, weak, or some other such term so that they can be discarded by the system.
#5) Unbalanced
Abusive religions must distinguish themselves from all other religions so they can claim to be distinctive and therefore special to God. This is usually done by majoring on minor issues such as prophecy, carrying biblical law to extremes, or using strange methods of biblical interpretation. The imbalanced spiritual hobby-horse thus produced represents unique knowledge or practices which seem to validate the group's claim to special status with God.
BIBLICAL RESPONSE
Examples of spiritual abuse are found throughout the Bible. God describes (and condemns) the "shepherds of Israel" who feed themselves rather than the flock, who do not heal those who are hurting, or seek to bring back those who were driven away but rather discard them, ruling with force and cruelty (Ezekiel 34:1-10). Jesus reacted with anger against the thievery of the money changers in the Temple as they misused God's people for selfish reasons (Matthew 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-18; Luke 19:45-47; John 2:13-16). He was angry at those more concerned with rules and regulations than with human suffering (Mark 3:1-5). In Matthew 23, Jesus describes the abusive spiritual leader in great detail. In John 9 the Pharisees "cast out" the man born blind simply because the truth he told about his healing exposed their own corruption. In Acts 7:51-56, Stephen called the Jewish leaders to account over their spiritual abuse. His testimony of Christ vindicated Jesus, whom they had abused, and condemned them. The legalistic Jews were so angry they stoned Stephen to death. In Galatians Paul addressed a performance based Christianity which leads to the abuse of legalism. There are many more such examples.
As God in human flesh, Jesus had legitimate spiritual authority. But He did not exercise it to gain power for Himself, or to abuse and control others with rules and regulations. He said, "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11:28). The Greek word for "heavy laden" is phortizo which means here "to overburden with ceremony (or spiritual anxiety)" (Strong's Concordance #5412). Jesus gave a balanced perspective on positional authority when he said, "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" (Matthew 23:8). He gave another key to discernment when He taught, "He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory..." (John 7:18a).
Jesus was not "image conscious." He was willing to associate with wine drinkers, cheating tax collectors and even prostitutes. He accused the legalistic Pharisees of "teaching for doctrine the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:9) and likened their showy, hypocritical outward rightousness to "whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness" (Matthew 23:27).
Neither was He paranoid. His ministry was conspicuously open to the public. When He was on trial (John 18) He was asked about His teachings and His reply was, "Why askest thou me?" Jesus pointed out that He always taught in public, and never in secret, so why not ask His disciples. He had nothing to hide.
Jesus did not fear to criticize the religious leaders or their faulty doctrines (e.g. Matthew 15:1-9; 23:1-39, etc.). And when confronted with criticism or with treacherous questions designed to discredit Him, His response was never to simply demand silence or only positive recognition from His accusers. Rather, He gave answers - scriptural and reasonable answers - to their objections (e.g. Luke 7:36-47; Matthew 19:3-9).
Jesus upheld the high standard of the Law, yet He clearly placed the legitimate needs of people before any rules or regulations (Matthew 12:1-13; Mark 2:23-3:5). The scriptures make it clear that no one will cease to sin in this life (Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). Jesus made it plain, however, that one can know in this life that one has eternal life (John 5:24; 6:37-40), a theme developed by Paul throughout his epistles, and by John (1 John 5:10-13).
The Pharisees, quintessential spiritually abusive leaders, were quite unbalanced in their perception of what mattered most to God. Jesus said they, "...pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, - judgment, mercy, and faith...." (Matthew 23:23).
EFFECTS OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE:
Spiritual abuse has a devastating effect on people. A very high level of trust is often placed in spiritual leaders. It is, and ought to be, expected that the trust will be honored and guarded. When such trust is violated the wound is very deep. Sometimes the wound is so deep that the wounded person cannot trust even a legitimate spiritual authority again.
An analogous situation exists with the victims of incest. The emotional and psychological symptoms exhibited by victims of incest parallel those of spiritual abuse to a remarkable degree. The main symptom is the inability to relate normally to people who represent the source of their emotional injury.
Besides an unhealthy fear of, and disillusionment with, spiritual authorities, the spiritually abused person may find it difficult to trust even God. "How could (or why did) He let this happen to me?" Anger is also deeply felt. Anger itself is not always wrong - God Himself expresses anger at such spiritual abuse (see Biblical Response, above). However, even legitimate anger, if not properly channeled and dealt with, can degenerate into bitterness and cynicism toward everything spiritual.
RECOVERY FROM SPIRITUAL ABUSE:
Healthy recovery from spiritual abuse must begin with understanding what has happened and how. A victim usually thinks he is the only one experiencing these problems. Just being able to give a name to the problem is important. There are many books on the subject (see Resources, below) that will be helpful in learning about spiritual abuse and recovery.
Afterward the abused person must learn the true nature of God's grace, love and forgiveness. This is the foundation for being able to eventually forgive the abuser. Being able to share the experience and what has been learned so as to minister to someone else's need is also very important. This could be done in a support group made up of people with a similar experience who can share the healing love of Christ.
Finally, a lot of time must be allowed for full recovery.
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02/09/2006: Missionary Released
Just thought I'd give the happy report that the missionary that was kidnapped in the article above was released on Feb. 5th and is unscathed. Thanks to GOD!
The main reason I shared the story was because of the "light" way in which we sometimes use the word "persecution".
~BH
I don't know how to make a new subject, but it seems to me that something's missing here. There's no discussion that specifically addresses healing and support in those of us who were raised in these oppressive churches.
I've been through (and still struggle with!) depression, anxiety, confusion, and the like...and I was raised by music-listening, movie-watching, pants-makeup-and-jewelry-wearing parents in the Apostolic Lutheran church.
My experience only lasted for about the first 15 years of my life, (and thank God that I'm the oldest, so my siblings have had even less of the judgment, fear, and oppression) but I think that was enough to do some long-term damage in me because here I am.
I've always been a strong, smart person, or so I thought. But I now find myself isolated and and unable to relate with people. I've been through some counseling, but still nobody (mostly meaning the counselor OR my Pastor who is 100% familiar with these churches) seems to understand what it is like to be a girl raised in this type of church. I have suspicions that I may have been abused by a babysitter, but because of the guilt and fear that the "elders" put all over you from birth, I think it may be repressed somewhere inside.
Anyway, if that ever happened, it was LONG ago. My main reason for writing is that I'd like to help and be helped by any women who were raised this way and maybe we can finally feel like SOMEBODY understands what we struggle with every day.
M~
Dear Anomymous 4:26
By any chance, do you live in Minnesota?
There is a wonderful counselor there who has worked with me and with some other ex-members of several of the Laestadian groups.
Dear M,
You may want to read the book "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan. I found it extremely helpful after I left. He has written other books on cults, which I haven't yet read, but are probably worth checking out.
Also, if you run internet searches on recovery from cult experiences, you probably will get a lot of information.
The nice thing with this and other LLL blogs is that because so many of us come from the LLL background, it makes me feel a little less alone and my experiences more normal. These sites seem to have cropped up in the past 2 years. For a long time after I left, there was absolutely no one, online or otherwise, who totally understood my background and particular situation.
B
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