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oalc-doubter said...
I am a long time oalc member with doubts, and am searching for answers. I find myself questioning many of the teachings . So much of it appears to be about appearances, manner of dress, unnecessary rules, etc., instead of what is in your heart. I feel I am being judged by some members, and even shunned by others. I have family and friends in the church, and the thought of someday leaving is very troubling. I would appreciate any comments from those who have been where I am now. Thanks.......
8/29/2006 11:06 PM
posted by Left the OALC at 8:46 AM
41 Comments:
You might want to read the post "Benefits of Leaving" at extoots. You'll need to scroll down to find it.
What kind of doubts do you have about the OALC?
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When I started thinking I might have doubts, I was terrified. I told myself I'd just continue along for appearances sake if I ever stopped believing the tenets of the church. When putting up a front became harder to bear than leaving, I quietly slid out of the church. I won't sugar-coat my experience in saying that upon leaving, birds began singing and the sun shined brightly. There was a dark period of several years where I struggled with finding an identity apart from the church. Now, although there is yet some work to be done in the process, I can confidently say there is a better, brighter place beyond the church. It's absolutely worth it.
I'll be thinking of you, and I know all of us are rooting for you to find a place of peace and truth.
I agree with ilmarinen. It can be a very dark, lonely, and difficult struggle to doubt the church and decide to leave. It's a long road, but one worth trying at the very least. I have more respect for folks who questioned their beliefs and returned to the church than those who never question in the first place.
And on the other side, after leaving the church, it can still be lonely. But I feel closer to God than I did before and believe I am a much better person now than I ever was in the church. I am more accepting, more giving, more loving, and more open-minded towards others and their differences. All of the things I believed I was taught growing up, but in practice was shunned for.
To OALC-doubter,
I could have written what you wrote. For decades I questioned many of the teachings. I too have friends and family in the church. Like you, I never could truly believe that the OALCers would be the only ones saved. My experience after 9/11 was nearly identical to yours. I left the church and although it is by far the most difficult decision I've ever made, time heals. It takes time to work through the emotions that will surface. It takes time to make new friends and find a new and comfortable place, wherever that may be.
I didn't want to become a bitter person. The key for me was to learn to accept my decision, and accept that for others the church works, and let it be at that. My spouse attends the OALC, and understands why it's not for me. We have a peaceful, happy home and we work together to raise our children in a healthy environment.
I continue to hope and pray that my friends and family in the OALC who seem to have written me off in ways, will learn that there is nothing to fear, and will someday renew our relationships. It hasn't stopped me from staying in touch. This is the only thing that I miss about my OALC days.
I have not joined another church. When I left the OALC, I felt "churched-out". It was all too much for me. I do attend a local ELCA service from time to time, and enjoy the prayers and the singing.
The OALC was a huge source of conflict for me. It didn't make sense to preach so heavily and continually about women's dress, and hair, vanity, playing golf, sports in school, musical instruments, radio, television, internet, and on and on, yet ignore the importance of how to truly love and care for one another, or the importance of healthy families, or that our behavior towards others is certainly more important than how we choose to dress and wear our hair.
I would encourage you to live what is in your heart.
oalc doubter:
I know how you feel. I also left the church. I am not from the "world" I was born with the "silver spoon" in my mouth. It has been very difficult socially but my immediate family life has improved immensely! My children are still little so they weren't familiar with the teachings! We spend alot of time together just being a family! I've never expirienced that before. It was always visiting here or there. I will be praying for you!
LLLreader asks: When I was growing up we did take family trips that didn't involve the church. I'm wondering if some families just always went with the crowd? What was it like for others--did you go on fishing trips, to the aquarium, the zoo, or places like that?
I agree with OALC-doubter. The Christianity is all about looking and acting the part. I have had people tell me that this certain person who just got married has a strong Christianity because they follow the rules and look the part, hair etc. Excuse me I say who are you to judge someone. Isn't that up to the LORD?
I have had people tell me that when they leave the OALC and go to another church they were so concerned with how to dress. It seems kind of foolish when you think about it. The way you look does not determine what is in your heart, only GOD knows that.
The thing that bothers me the most is how self rightous many people are. There is also a terrible gossip network that to me is used to keep everyone in line. Don't get caught walking into a movie theatre buy another OALCer! I remember a text from the Bible that talks about removing the log from your own eye before putting it in someone else's.
That text is about removing the log from your own eye before attempting to remove the splinter from someone elses. Matthew 7:3-5
Were you actually taught it the way you said; from some of the things I here have been taught in some of the churches I wouldn't really be suprised.
anon 2:51
No actually I had the passage wrong from the bible. I remember reading it in the Bible. Thanks for the clarification.
Wow, this is amazing to find this website. I am not an Old Apostolic Lutheran, however I used to belong to the Laestadian Lutheran Church, which broke off from the Apostolic Lutheran church in 1973 or 1974. I have not read every blog, but many and it is the same experience I have felt. I quit their church 14 years ago and it has been a journey, let me tell you. When you have been brainwashed since you were a child, it is so hard to think differently. I quit the church because of the stupid bans they put on people, ie: makeup, tv, sports, nail polish, coloring of hair, rock music, etc. You know what I am talking about. For many years I felt, yes they probably are right, I just don't feel I am sinning if I wear makeup or watch TV. However, that has changed in the last several years. I had not sought out another church until recently. I was turned away from it and that is sad. It is a very emotional journey when you quit and there is not support. You have to start ALL over with your life. My familys attitude when I quit was they were so sad for me cuz now I was going to hell.
Well, I have recently sought out a church, a ELCA lutheran church, and they teach exactly as the Laestadians and Old Apostolics did, BUT, they do NOT believe that the kingdom of God is exclusive in one denomination of church and they do not put stupid bans on people. Yes, these things they told us were sin could be sins, IF we hold them higher than GOD. We could find almost everything God has given us to have something evil in it, so therefore nothing would be available for us to use if we start nit picking. Example: TV: Yes it can be used as a tool by the devil to draw us away from God, however it is a great tool we can use. That is when our conscience comes into play, should I watch that or do I feel it would harm my spirit.
My pastor put it best, believe in the gospel message of Jesus, rather than mans interpretation of the way things should be. If we have faith and believe in Jesus and that he is our Lord and Saviour Jesus tells us we are saved.
I feel that I am saved and am working on my relationship with Christ in a new light. It is so clear to me now and it is so exciting.
Hi, pastor!
What area are you from? I've checked out the WELS site, and love that it's just straight up Biblical, and that I can ask a question and get the Biblical answer... Not the "I've heard it preached..." answer.
www.wels.net
Hi, r!
You said something about your "short" life. How old are you or approximately? Just curious because it hasn't been very long since I left church either. I'm pretty young and don't know many young people that have left. Praise God that He has delivered us from that bondage!!
I think the reason many people don't leave because it is a comforting place to be, they are comforting people. Many people in that church are not living as they are taught they should, they are being hypocrites. They are scared to leave, because it's a whole new world out there. And many truly believe that "this IS the way". How insane is that though if you think about it. Think about all the people that have Jesus in their hearts, and have never heard of the LLC and never will. Thats what keeps my faith going, I trust in God above all else, he guides me, he comforts me.
Just another question for the pastor of the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran church. I have heard that the missouri synod and wisconsin synod practice some exclusivism as well. Like the pastor can be removed from clergy if caught praying with other christians, and that you cannot have communion there unless you are a member. Is this true?
My father was raised in the OALC. He left the church when he married my Mother, and later returned when my parents divorce. To this day, I mourn the loss of my father, as he is not the man I knew growing up. He now lives in constant fear, he's judgemental, and looks at me and my siblings as people condemned to hell. We are, afterall, the walking dead to him. I no longer have a relationship with my father, which causes me great sadness. The fact that he can't love me unconditionally or be proud of me, hurts me. Do I blame the church? Absolutely. A man that once was full of life, is now just a shell of a human. The life from his eyes is gone. I no longer know him, and he fears me; afterall, I am evidence of a life he has chosen to forget.
Hi, Faith.
While we wait to hear back from "pastor", I thought I'd let you know what I think the answer to your question is, at least regarding the Wisconsin synod. I now attend a WELS church, and used to be OALC. My pastor has made it perfectly clear to me that he certainly expects to find Christians from many different "denominations" in Heaven; the one Holy Christian Church is not a particular denomination, but the entirety of Jesus followers. When asked if he thought only WELS would be there, he said "absolutely not", and totally acknowledged that not all the WELS would likely be there, either...
My understanding with not sharing Holy Communion with those who are not WELS is that it is out of concern for both the non-WELS person wanting to take communion and the WELS members coming to the Lord's Supper; the pastor speaks with them first to make sure they are in agreement with what we believe before we share Holy Communion together. There's more on this topic at: (copy and paste in your browser) http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuItem_itemID=9265&cuTopic_topicID=57
God Bless!
Anonymous, that goes along with what the Roman Catholics teach as well. We are not in complete agreement or "communion" in our faith, and therefore we do not share that sacrament. However, any non-RC can come to the altar during communion and receive a blessing from the priest. They simply signal to the priest that they are non-Catholic by crossing their arms over their breast.
I lived in England for a number of years and in our little village the three major churches -- Roman Catholic, Church of England, and Methodist -- had formed a group called the "Churches on the Green", and several times a year we had a shared service, rotating it around the churches. The charter of the group was that we would do all that we could together, because we felt it was a way to come to a common understanding and a move toward each other rather than apart. Those services were well attended by all of the Christians there in Englefield Green.
Welcome Linda,
I think the Lord purposely brings us to places that bring up old wounds, because He really wants to heal us. So we can look at what happened without fear, so we can really heal; not just pretend it never happened. And quite amazingly, He often uses our pain to help others, either while we are in the process of healing or when we come out on the other side of it.
Yes, indeed there is pain in love, especially in loving as Jesus does.
With love and prayers,
joy
LLLreader sez to anonymous 5:14--I have been thinking about you and am so sorry for you and your Dad both. What a waste and what a loss. I don't have any great words of wisdom here, but I understand what you are dealing with and wish you well.
oops I read here and posted under hp3. and thanks to Joy for the reminder about old wounds... and free thanks for participating even if I cant quote you exactly :p
Someone referred this website awhile back, and Ive been re-reading it. They discuss fundamentalist thinking in history, religion and in all of us. What is most fascinating is the descriptions of how individuals chose another path for themselves; the internal and external struggles and consequenses. Its fascinating and a newer, clearer outside perspective of the inside tornado of doubts and conflict. The site is
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/cracks-in-wall-part-ii-listening-to.html
it should work to copy and paste.
God bless each of us and watch over us as we journey towards Him and His truth.
Bryan--
Those I know who left tried talking to preachers along the way, and the doubts only got worse. For an extreme example, read exoalc's experience...
For myself, the preachers could/can never reconcile all the doctrinal issues... Things like the many times the Bible passages they'd discuss had a meaning seemingly hidden to all except the OALCers...
Reading and studying the Bible now is so enlightening and wondrous; not the frustration I felt before when trying to understand it the way the preachers explained it. I always ended up feeling like I'd never get it because the way they explained it just didn't make sense to me. Now I realize the Bible's not meant to be difficult for me to understand; I just have to read it, learn it, and love it... And I'll learn something new everytime I do.
God Bless you all during this beautiful Christmas season. Rejoice!!!
where can I read exoalc's experiences? Thank you
Hi hp3.
exoalc has the oldapostoliclutheran.com website. It's all there...
God bless!
I just found this site I have heard about it from people in my church. I go to the New ALC and am wondering if the people that have left the OALC have thought about coming to worship there and what their thoughts are on the church I attend.
OALC-Doubter said:
I'm still here, just haven't posted in awhile. While I still am attending the oalc, I have come to believe that the church I have attended all of my adult life is not preaching the truth! Many on this and other sites have told me to knock, seek, and find, and I have been reading the Bible and comparing what is preached, and my eyes have been opened.
I have read about the death of Marian Halberg on Free2Bme site, and I can tell you that the funeral service that EXOALC posted about is typical for a person that has left the Church. Nothing but gloom and doom, and "see what happens to you if you leave" nonsense!
I am beginning to think that how in the world I could have been deceived by the teachings of the oalc all these years! I am especially bothered by the oalc idea that they are the only ones saved out of the billions of people on the planet.
Where was my brain? I am now searching for a bible based church where I can be encourged to live a life full of Gods love and forgiveness, and get myself away from the lies, half-truths, and bondage of the oalc.
Please pray for me and my family.
OALC Doubter, it's good to see you post again. Certainly you are in my prayers as you continue your search and journey. I want to believe that in our little community of writers on this and the other blogs, we all pray for each other and love one another. You are doing the right thing to seek elsewhere if you no longer ascribe to the teachings of a church whether it be the OALC or another. If we continue to outwardly profess a support for something we no longer believe in, then we are living a lie. I think most of us who have left our respective root churches have all experienced that to some degree -- for all of the reasons that come to mind about not wanting to hurt family or friends, or having doubts about whether it is the Lord leading us or the devil, or whatever the reasons might be. I think that is actually good, when you think about it. It means that as we consider and pray and discuss, we are not making such an all important decision casually and without some agony.
Those of us who write on these forums have found peace in many different places. Personally, I found that solace in the Roman Catholic church, a place where many of the other writers probably have as many or more issues than they have with the OALC! That's OK, because it's right for me, even if it's not for others. Many seem to have found their place in other Lutheran churches, others in non-denominational or free churches, and some in the quiet of their own hearts.
I don't know that there is a right or a wrong place to gather our worship in a global sense, but there is a right place for each individual. As we search and we pray, I am confident those prayers are heard and we are guided to the answers that are right for each of us -- founded first, foremost, and always in the salvation through Jesus, the Christ and Redeemer.
Search in the knowledge that many have experienced exactly the same thoughts and doubts and confusion. Search knowing that your struggle is in the eyes of God, who will surely never let a child of his perish if they are earnestly seeking him. And search knowing that you are in the prayers of many who are willing to try to help in any way we can.
cvow your post is seconded by me, you worded yours so well.
I, too, have been through similar experience. Start reading your Bible. In the Bible it says that
'the church is the body of Christ',therefore all those who believe. If you believe in Jesus Christ, you are saved. There are believers everywhere in so many places. Therefore, my personal take was this... I didn't choose to leave 'the church' since the church is the body of Christ. I did not leave the body of Christ...However, I did choose to worship in a different place - a place that I was able to hear truth, a place where the Holy Spirit was present, a place where God was worshiped in truth and in spirit. A.C.
anon 1/22 1200
I like your post :)
It makes perfect sense that we have not left Christ, nor his body, nor his church, just found another PLACE to worship.
Thank you for contributing.
Hello, oalc-doubter! I appreciate your concern:)
Everything is fine with me... I try my best to keep track of the conversations on this blog, but my main reason for keeping it here is for people like you-- so that you can have a place to feel safe to communicate with others. That wasn't available at the start of my journey out of the OALC, and it would have been so helpful and comforting to me...
I think it's wonderful that free2bme takes the time to keep that site current and lively; I like to check it out often!
My intention for this site was mainly to keep it available for those in need. When there's a topic someone brings up that they want to discuss, I move it up front if I think it will be helpful to them or others...
God Bless!! You are in my prayers.
I heard of this website and decieded to look for myself as others were talking about it. To my dismay i could not believe what i was reading. All of this evil work that is going on in this world. How could someone even think to do this? This is so dangerous for us christains and we have to be oh so careful in this sinful world. None of this is true OALC is a place for everyone.
Anon 12:25--
If you truly believe none of it is true, then when you ask forgiveness this Sunday for looking at it, your conscience should be clear.
But if you came looking because deep down you know a lot of these people are speaking the truth, there are loving non-OALC Christians here to support you.
God Bless you and yours.
I think its interesting that anon's response to 'this website' is "none of this is true" when 'this website' and others like it, are a lot of people sharing thier thoughts, feelings, experiences, hopes and dreams. How can one person categorize another person's inner workings, and experiences as "not true" ???
Its a cliche oalc response with no depth to it. Kind of like my brick wall analogy. That Im trying to carry on this conversation with a brick wall... the wall has inscriptions of cute, meaningless cliches on it... So that no matter what I say the wall will only repeat itself... and there is no intelligent response to that. I can only shake my head and walk away. (I can remember my uncles being so proud of themselves when they could make a 'worldly' speechless. It was actually a bragging point. They just never realized it was because they looked too stupid to converse with)
exoalc
Since your website has oalc specifically in it, and people will probably find this first, I would like to suggest that you create links to the many other sites that may not be so quickly and easily accessable. There is a wealth of info out there, and if someone is taking the time to look, it would be nice to give them avenues to continue thier search.
Just a thought and thanks again for being here :)
PS is there a way to delete my comments if I want to? I have a tendencty to accidently post on the wrong thread...
YEA, AND DONT FORGET TO CHECK OUT ALL THE EVIL WORK AT
EXTOOTS.BLOGSPOT.COM!(lots of OALCers trying to explain their ways)
Yea, and dont forget to checkout all the evil work at EXTOOTS.BLOGSPOT.COM!!!!
oalc doubter, it has been interesting to read how your posts have changed since you first found "us" out here online. It has been interesting (more so for me than you Im sure) to follow your progress and growth, as some of the "cycles" or "stages" mirror my own. I can tell you have been reading your bible more, and you seem to be reconciling some of the differences. I just wanted to encourage you on your journey towards Christ, and thank you for contributing.
I'm not from the church, but I am associated to it (an ousider) through my husband's family. It drives me crazy when I hear them talk about themselves as "the Christians," as if they are the only ones on earth. That teaching keeps their church in spiritual bondage.
I lived in confusion of their church for many years. I tried to look like them for awhile just to fit in, just to be accepted by my husband's family. My heart wasn't in it, and I couldn't keep up appearances. As long as I am not part of their church, I will always be an outsider in their eyes, regardless of my faith in Christ.
Many years ago I went to a service there with my husband; the singing had started when we were approaching the church, and I began to cry. I felt an overwhelming saddness. I cried through the whole service as if I were mourning a terrible death. I asked myself "where is the praise, the worship, the joy?" They don't believe in that either? That robs a Christian of their relationship with the lord. That is so sad.
Another time I remember hearing one of the preachers tell a story about how he openly shunned an outsider/ visitor who was attending a wedding there. He told about the shunning in disturbing detail. I was shocked. I thought "you are suppose to be representing your church with Christ-like behavior and this is how you treat people, and this is how you want your church body to treat people?" Satan was loving it.
I've been afraid to speak out against the church to my husband's family. Me--the peacekeeper, trying not to step on toes, fear of rejection, fear of conflict. I thought it really didn't matter anymore what they thought of me. No matter what I do, it's worldly in their eyes. Maybe I've been looking at it wrong all these years. I need to live and speak my faith in front of them and hopefully, prayerfully open their eyes.
I love my husband and his family. They are good people. They've taught me a lot I can be thankful for. I do admire that they are so dedicated to their religion. That is their way of life; they've known no different. They don't know that they are stuck. I pray that their eyes are opened to the false teachings of thier church.
I've enjoyed reading the blogs in this site. I know there are a lot of people confused and hurting. I pray for all of you OALCers and XOALCers.
Know that you don't have to be from the church to be effected by it. I would love to hear from some of you who, like me, are not from the chuch but are somehow associated with it.
My husband is not from the church, and I am no longer affiliated with it. He is the one who found these websites, with his curiosity to better know and understand my past experiences. However, he has read through but doesnt contribute :p I suppose it may be a little different for him too because I was no longer affiliated before we even met; yet its amazing how the effects still linger for so long... I have often wondered how things appeared and were for people looking in at that strange little world. Im sure its not any easier for you to try and figure things out... I can encourage you to read the blogs and many of the links/resources that are referred to and you will learn quite a bit! And Ive found understanding to help generate more patience (not so much tolerance)
I'm in the same category as hp3, with a cradle Catholic spouse. When we first got married, we both attended each other's churches for awhile. One Sunday, our local hatemonger "preacher" got to railing on about the Pope and the Catholics, and she never went back. To her credit, she never said a word against the OALC while I was attending, and she opened our home to OALCers who came by. As I've said elsewhere, I saw quite a few non-OALC spouses treated in similar fashion on a regular basis. I understand what you go through, Anon 12:59. Your support for your family under those conditions is commendable.
"Everyone Welcome" the sign says. What a joke. It should read "Every welcome who wants their beliefs mocked, their life ridiculed, and their faith questioned."
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