How many?
As I was looking over lots of posts, both here and at "extoots", I started feeling an overwhelming sadness. A person posted, very hurried and afraid of getting caught by her husband. Another post stated "I know what I need to do; I've known it all along. Knowing what's right and doing what's right are two different things. I know what's right. It's so hard to act on it when I feel like I have no support."
My sadness comes in wondering HOW MANY? How many people are in the OALC (and other Laestadian churches), having these doubts, but not able to speak to anyone about them? Could I ever have had the strength to leave without the support of my spouse, let alone if my spouse was against it? How would I have dealt with the guilt of knowing my children would suffer like me if I didn't have the strength to leave? How many are struggling with these issues with no support?
My prayer for all of them, however many, is that they will look to Jesus Christ for their answers. Open the Bible and read. Let the Holy Spirit work in you through the Word. And know that there are MANY of us here praying for you, willing to listen to you and support you. Please know that you are not alone. My heart aches for you all, and I am praying for you.
posted by Left the OALC at 9:13 PM
129 Comments:
Its been interesting to see many of my family memberse slowly drift away from the church, and so sad that they also let thier relationship with God drift too. One of my brothers said "I will go once or twice a year. When I need some good preaching at I know where to go" Oh I agree with that, but who (besides THEM) says religion and a relationship with God has to be about "a good preachin at" ??? I have tried to encourage them to read the bible, because I know they have doubts they cannot reconcile, yet they stay in limbo, year after year; refusing to go back and refusing to move on.
I think I was just fortunate my "dark night" was so short... Sometimes we will talk about faith topics, but mostly I just set an expample and speak when its relevant, and encourage when it comes up. THey're not ready for anything else, as much as I wish I could give it to them.
I can remember in confirmation, and the high school years after, how many of us used to talk among ourselves with our questions and concerns, doubts and fears about the church, sermans, preachers advice etc. Everyone I knew had them, but it had to be just the right situation/circumstance to talk about it; and then only in whispers or after making sure NO ONE else was around to hear.
Its one of the natures of the church. They preach, "behind the table" these thoughts and discussions are "SIN" Its a sin to discuss the bible without a preacher there, because members need thier guidance and interpretation.
I think in that way they are very similar to the old catholic churches of Europe. However, today I think we are much luckier to live in America where we only have to face our own fears, shunning and being "outcast" rather than being publicly hung or beheaded. Although dying would mean the pain is over faster... Emotional pain can effect a person much worse.
Even today I have a married brother still in the church, who leads thier life on the outside... but when its just the two of us alone he will talk to me and tell a very different, sad story. He even asked me once to spend more time with his wife, to please 'corrupt her a little' and away from the church. It made me smile; a little with humor, much with sadness. He was trying to listen to the whispers of the holy spirit in his heart... I still dont talk to them much, although thats more thier choice than mine. I will be tolerated when they are together, if I initiate the contact. They dont contact me. Its so hard to move forward on such a shallow level, without talking about what really matters to us... I am sure I rambled plenty about this in my posts when I first found this site :p And Im sure it will take many more years of prayer and trust to find any sort of 'resolution' but in that direction I will forge, because I love them so much too.
oalc-doubter in reading some of your posts I think you need to go to church this Sunday and confess your sins to the other Christians. [If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us (I John 1:6-10).]
We are to confess before God that we are guilty of all sin, even of those which we do not know. However, we should confess those sins which we know and feel in our hearts and which burden our consciences, to a trusted Christian (confessor). The confession of sins to a confessor is a precious gift of God and a privilege which every Christian should use according to his needs and the demands of his conscience. Go talk to your preachers and teachers and remove this burden of sin as we all should strive to believe that the wings of faith will carry us to heaven.
anon above--
What exactly are you asking oalc-doubter to confess? That he or she is a sinner? They never once denied that. But if you are asking them to confess to having doubts in the Church (OALC), that is not a sin. To take the words of the men behind that table as coming from God without comparing them to the actual Word of God -- now that's a sin. Who should really be doing the confessing here?
I pray for you that your eyes and heart will be opened to His Word. Read it, learn it, and compare it to what you hear every Sunday. Trust in His Word-- NOT the words of man.
God bless you.
This comment has been removed by the author.
"as we all should strive to believe that the wings of faith will carry us to heaven."
I've noticed Laestadians, preachers and lay people alike, seem to end a monologue with something similar to what was posted above, often said in a mumbled, almost chanted manner.
Perhaps I'm the only one who feels this, but those closing phrases trigger certain feelings in me. I feel I've been beaten and abused until I'm cringing and crying and broken. When the abuser has finally crushed my spirit, they suddenly try to become very tender and close to me. That's when I finally know the abuse is over. I breathe a sigh of relief for the respite and hope to never trigger it again. Classic abuse.
Thank God I'm free from the full power of those comments, even if not the residual feelings!
This is copied from extoots.blogspot.com since "anon 8:52" seems to be the same anon greenhorn was responding to there...
greenhorn said...
Anon above:
Did she say she doesn't believe in Christ?
Maybe she doubts the OALC doctrine, not neccessarily Christ and His teachings. (Not to speak for her.)
Do you believe that OALC doctine = Christ doctrine? I know I did and I've repented of that.
I, too, have repented of that sin, and again ask for forgiveness for blindly accepting the OALC preachers words as truth without comparing them to His Word. So many years that I should have been reading the Bible faithfully and comparing it to what I was being told. So many lost years when I should have been spreading His Love and His Word. For this, I need forgiveness...
Oalc-doubter; I cannot speak for the OALC as I am from the LLC. We speak from the Bible when we talk about our faith. My only concern is that your name may not be written in the book of life. Here it says[... And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15).]
God be with you.
anon 9:57--
What does your book of life quote have to do with oalc-doubter? He or she states that their faith is fully in the Lord and His word, not the words of man. What there indicates they will be taken out of the book of life? That is what the LORD commands us to do in HIS WORD; trust in HIM, not the words of man. It seems that some Laestadians think believing like a child was referring to believing the preachers. No, dear ones, it means believing in Christ and His redemptive work as a child. Believing in ANY man in this way could be our path to eternal damnation.
That risk would seem much greater to anyone who believes the words of any person (laestadian or other) without comparing them to God's Word. If you take the preachers' words as being from God without comparing them to THE WORD, then you are the one in danger of not finding your name in the book of life.
God's peace and blessings to you.
LLLreader sez: I posted this on the other blog, but am going to stick it in here too. The belief that a person can only have his sins forgiven within the OALC, and from other members, started about 1853 when Raattamaa laid his hand on a distressed women who felt overcome with sin. She felt joy at the words of Raattamaa and believed her sins forgiven. Raattamma discussed it with LLL and they decided that was the way to go. That means that every person who had lived in the years before 1853 did not have their sins forgiven correctly. I believe Raattamma was a man who, after he quit drinking, did try to live a good life. But, I don't think he was anything other then just another man. For people to base their belief on Raattamma, and the other man LLL, is not what the Bible teaches. Before I started reading about the history of the OALC this last year--as a part of being on this blog--I had never heard the name Raattamma, and I am willing to bet most of the OALC members haven't either. They need to know on what a slim foundation their belief is set.
Jesus died on the cross for all our sins. All our sins were nailed to that cross, we just need to believe it when we sin and have remorse, believe they are forgiven. Words from someones mouth doesn't mean a darn thing if that person doesn't believe in their heart that their sins are forgiven. Spoken words are just reassurance that you can believe sins are forgiven. The power isn't in the words, its in believing in your heart.
Of course we ask forgiveness from each other when we do wrong. But sins to God can be confessed to him, the bible states this.
And, if a sin is not forgiven until someone physically tells you it is, why in the world did Jesus die then? He had no reason to die if man HAD to seek for someone to physically forgive their sins in order for it to be absolved. Jesus did the work already, we need to believe. Believe our sins are forgiven.
In the old testament people sacrificed animals to God when they had a sin, in the temple behind the curtain. When Jesus died, the curtain was torn down. People did not have to sacrifice animals anymore, Jesus sacrificed his life. For us, its done, finished. Believe.
No where in the bible does it state that man has to physically receive forgiveness of sins from another person in order to enter into the kingdom. I believe that is a works, we are not saved by works.
Confession of Sin
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us (I John 1:6-10).
We are to confess before God that we are guilty of all sin, even of those which we do not know. However, we should confess those sins which we know and feel in our hearts and which burden our consciences, to a trusted Christian (confessor). The confession of sins to a confessor is a precious gift of God and a privilege which every Christian should use according to his needs and the demands of his conscience.
Confession should never be taught in an exacting spirit. Neither should it be taught as a condition for salvation, but rather, as a gift of God's mercy. The only condition for salvation is scriptural faith in Jesus. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life (John 6:47).
If a believer's conscience is burdened with sins he has committed and acknowledged before, these sins may still be a hindrance to his faith. If the believer feels an inner need and urge to confess these sins to a trusted Christian, this is the voice of the Holy Spirit to which he should be obedient. Confession of sins to a confessor is not a meritorious work and the believer is not made righteous by this act, for he is already righteous in Christ. He confesses his sins in order to restore peace of conscience through absolution, and so that he may be able to freely appropriate the Gospel. He is not to think that only those sins which he confessed are forgiven, for absolution means that all his sins are forgiven, even those which he may not be aware of.
If sins which have been confessed and forgiven begin to again trouble him, or if doubt assails him as to whether his sins were truly forgiven through the absolution, then that voice is his own corruption and the voice of the devil. This voice should be rejected. He should believe the promise of Christ that his sins, which have been declared forgiven in Jesus' name by a trusted Christian on earth, are truly forgiven before God in heaven. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 18:18).
Even though a Christian has been blessed with the forgiveness of sins and has received peace and joy in his heart, he may still fall into sin. But the Holy Spirit will guide him, and urge him to put away that sin, and will assure him that it is forgiven through faith in the word of the Gospel that is extended to him in Jesus' name and blood. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And He is the propitiation for our sins... (1 John 2:1,2). ...let us lay aside every weight and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith... (Hebrews 12:1,2). Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water (Hebrews 10:22).
Jesus gave the disciples an example concerning the cleansing from sin on this journey when He began to wash their feet: Simon Peter saith unto Him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit... (John 13:9,10).
Jesus used the washing of the feet (a natural custom of the times) to illustrate a very important spiritual responsibility which belongs to all of God's children. His will is that they would, in humility, having themselves received mercy, be ready to assure, exhort and encourage one another on this spiritual journey with the Word of faith, so that they can believe their failures, and sins (the accumulation of dust and filth from the journey through this wilderness of sin), forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you (John 13:14,15).
The consequence of serving sin and walking in disobedience to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, eventually is spiritual death. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16). But God will not take His Spirit away from those who have the desire to continue walking in the light, even though they feel that they have not always been able to overcome temptation: A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench... (Isaiah 42:3).
I am not sure if anon 5:49 is from oalc, but I want to state that I do agree with most of your post and my discrepancies are not to you directly, but to the oalc teachings as I was taught, as they pertain to these scriptures.
John 1:1-10 I noticed in your interpretation of these verses regarding confessing sins, you added the words "to a trusted christian (confessor)" and stated "we should" I can accept that is your interpretation, but I cannot accept the oalc judgement that I am condemned because I interpret differently, without this additions.
"If the believer feels an inner need and urge to confess these sins to a trusted Christian," I believe that may or may not be the Holy Spirit, and again I strongly disagree with the oalc teachings that this 'feeling an inner need to confess to another' is manditory to salvation and what makes that church "special and the only saving faith."
(John 13:14,15).
I absolutely agree that we should forgive each other, as the anology of washing each others feet. (but again the oalc has added to this and I disagree with the 'manditory' additions)
"But God will not take His Spirit away from those who have the desire to continue walking in the light, even though they feel that they have not always been able to overcome temptation: A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench... (Isaiah 42:3)."
Amen! So why do the oacl feel that faith is so wavering and prone to be lost at any breathtaking moment???
(and nowhere does it state what church one has to attend in order for this to be true!!! :)
I have read that the analogy of washing each others feet means serving each other. Where does it specifically say its the forgiveness of sins? I don't see it.
Anon 5:49
That is really some good thoughts and it must of taken you a long time to copy and paste that from this website.
http://www.apostolic-lutheran.org/doctrine/index.html
Thanks for the input.
James 5:16
Confess your faults (sins) one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Like my earler post said before God we acknowledge ourselves guilty of all sins. I believe when we repent and become a believer in Jesus Christ He forgives all our sins but if we continue to live in sin there will become a time we fall out of grace. I think each person does know when they are living in unbelief. I don't believe that if I sin today and am repentent but I don't confess it and I die I'm going to hell. I think it is importent to confess our sins and faults to other christians. I struggle myself, with wanting to think that because I have been blessed with the act of forgiveness that means I'm saved but I take it as a reminder and reasurrance that Jesus is with and I am saved. As well as the fact I have shared it with a brother or sister that can help me, keep me accountable, pray for me. I think it is very importent to ask forgiveness if you have wronged someone and that means going to them and telling them what you did, asking them to forgive you and if you need to give retribution to do that as well. This doesn't apply just to fellow believers. I have personally had to go to unbelievers and ask them to forgive me for sinning against them. Through grace God has given us faith to believe and we must cling to that. I agree that its not the set of doors we walk through each Sunday! Only God can judge and know our hearts. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Thanks for the verse in Isiah I'm going to put it to memory. It is an awesome verse!
Anon 12:43
Thank you I thought It was worded better then I could explain and I hope everyone can see what I'm trying to say with my second feeble reply! =)
Anon talks to Anon, who is answering another Anon about what anon said. Aggggghhhhhhhh!!!
Please , can't you anons click on "other", and pick some kind of anonymous name so we know who is talking to who? Please. Maybe?
Im sure the washing of feet story can have many interpretations: forgiving, serving etc. I think the important thing is we get something good out of it... and I think the danger is when one person/church/religion says thier interpretation is the only correct one.
"James 5:16
Confess your faults (sins) one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
so does the oalc consider "healed" to translate into "the only way to be saved" ? I have to disagree with that translation; however I like the previous comment pertaining to 'If the believer feels an inner need and urge to confess these sins to a trusted Christian' then by all means, go confess! If it makes you a better person/ Christian and the world a better place, then go do it. Accountability from the heart is a wonderful, trustworty, relationship to have. Just dont make it a manditory action for everyone else to be saved, and claim the bible says so. I also believe its important (but not a factor of my soul being saved) to apologize/ask forgiveness when we have wronged someone. Love isnt love until you give it away etc. Relationships need honesty, goodwill and forgiveness to mend our natural imperfections.
LLL talks about the revival very well and you cannot have a movement like the one we believe in; in any other church.
In an 1857 letter to the Hernösand Consistory, Laestadius gives the reasons for these outbursts: “If the lightning of Mount Sinai strikes a contrite heart, a cry of anguish rises from a group of women. If a beam of light of the gospel strikes a contrite heart, the penitent one has to let out a cry of joy. It is not at all in their power to suppress these exalted feelings. They have to vent their feelings through sounds, for otherwise their hearts would break.” He explains that these outbursts are manifestations of living faith: “The spiritual voices of the readers in church cannot fall silent as long as there is a spark of living faith in their hearts, but with spiritual death the silence of spiritual death enters the church: no one sighs, no one weeps, no one whines, no one wails, no one cries out from agony or joy.”
In an 1858 letter to the well-known pastor and temperance leader Peter Wieselgren, Laestadius again describes liikutuksia: “In their ecstatic state, some come at a flying pace and jostle me roughly, so that at times I have to guard my eyes and ears. When they have calmed down after perhaps a quarter of an hour, they show clear insight into the order of grace, based on real experience, and a knowledge of God’s Word that is surprising. Thus they have an understanding that is as clear as their feelings are intense. While they fly high over the earth with wings of faith, I stand with my big intellect and insensitive heart, like a bump on a log, unable to respond to their expressions of love, for only a few flashes strike my heart, which is hardened by self-righteousness.”
Firstborn, I have personally witnessed a Catholic charismatic group listening to an enthusiatic lay minister begin to chant "in tongues". At the time, I had no idea that there was a charismatic movement within the Catholic church and it is not very widespread, but there it was. Since that time I have met other Catholics who also embrace this, but they are relatvely few and far between. At the event I witnessed, some of those present became so enraptured (if that's the right word) that they were collapsing and rolling on the floor. I suggest that those Christians also felt the spirit moving within them perhaps in a way similar to what you say Laestadius witnessed.
I personally felt no urge whatsoever to join in that experience. I admit that I even found it offputting in some strange way, but then that may be because I am of Finnish stock that simply does not indulge in public displays like that! :-)
I have no idea whether or not what I saw was a true manifestation of the Holy Spirit coming upon these Christians, although I do believe that THEY believed it was. In talking to many of the people present afterwards, I felt they had a simple and childlike faith in the Lord. I think the Lord moves in mysterious ways, and it is not for us to judge whether or not someone else's experience and belief is right or wrong, as long as there is no harm to anyone. It is their experience, and it is between them and God.
Regarding the washing of feet, I believe it has to do with being a servant to others. Jesus demonstrated through his action that while he was the "leader", he led by serving his friends.
The Catholic church observes the ritual washing of the feet each year on Maundy Thursday, when the priest and deacons wash the feet of the other parishioners.
I don't ever recall the OALC using James 5:16 as reference by the way. Can't understand why
First born: how elitist of you to assume no one else can have the experiences you have in your church. Have you been to every single other church that exists in this world? Over all time that experiences can have taken place? Does your bible state that the Holy Spirit only works wonders in your church?
I notice you only quoted LL as your reference, what biblical scriptures can you refer to, to substantiate your point of view? After all, the bible is the ultimate source of guidance, not LL.
Anon: based on my personal experiences as a former oalc member, and conversations with current and former oalc members I undertood that their preachers claim to open the bible at random and speak about whatever passage the bible gets opened to: however, over time one will notice that there are less than a handful of passages that are "selected" and "spoken on" Also, the passages are not read and preached about IN FULL, but only a few verses. The serman generally consists of "what we have always been taught" and "how its been interpreted by LL and the elders" There is no room for the Holy Spirit to work in the present. Its said the preachers dont prepare thier sermans because God will speak for them, but it seems to be a panic induced serman, scrambeling through the insufficient memory banks of man as to what has been taught before by others.
Its so sad to reminise about these sermans, especially regarding "movements of the Holy Spirit" Its so sad to me that a church, or anyone for that matter, but especially a church, that is taking responsibility for others spiritual path, would take another mans interpretations of the bible and place more emphasis on them than on the bible itself. More so than the living Holy Spirit, as its alive still today! I cant believe that people could try to so specifically define something so beyond us!!! I have witnessed and had many experiences of many types... I have seen and felt the presense of the Holy Spirt, of GOD inside and outside the oalc. We can be so presumptious totry to define God and his power!!!!!!!!!!
I went and read the Epistle of James, and it seems to contradict much of what is written in the other books of the New Testament. So I did a little research and found that Luther himself was not a fan of James, he called it “the epistle of straw.”
www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-James.html
I guess it is these contradictions and multiple interpretations that have made me a Deist.
I have been reading these postings with much confusion in my heart and mind. I just moved to Yacolt, WA where there are several members of the OALC. They seem to be very kind, good Christians. I, myself, am looking to find a new church. The church I currently attend is filled with 'Sunday-only-Christians'. I have been wanting to try the OALC, but because of comments on pages such as this, I am afraid. I hear the things you are saying about being trapped in rules and the words of men instead of the Word and the Holy Spirit. However, I don't see this being a problem with the Church. Church rules are set up to protect believers from Satan's temptations. What is so wrong with a church full of rules? The problem is with people who see these rules as the means of salvation. I highly doubt that the church preaches, "Wear a skirt, and you will go to heaven." The thought is simply that by wearing a skirt (if you are female), you are showing respect for the Lord. Our outward appearances are not why we are saved, we are saved by trusting in Jesus. However, is a person who isn't willing to do the things that please the Lord (dress modestly, avoid worldy entertainments, etc.) really in a position to say they are trusting in Him? And, does the OALC really only believe their members are going to heaven, or do they simply believe that you must believe in the teachings of Christ? I do not want to offend anyone with my words. I am simply trying to sift through the information that is out there about the OALC before I choose to worship there with my family. If there are any current or ex-members of the OALC church in Battle Ground, I would really love to hear about your experience with the church.
Thanks be to God!
b
searching-
I spent most of my life in that church and I can assure you that they truly believe that they are the only people on this planet with salvation. But don`t be afraid to visit there. They won`t bite you, but they probably won`t go out of their way to welcome you, either.I encourage you to visit there as I feel it would answer alot of questions for you- and who knows? What if you like it?
And no, they dont say you will go to heaven if you wear a skirt, but it is preached HEAVILY for women to not wear pants. It is also taught that it is a sin to go against what is preached. So alot of times you just have to put 2&2 together.
I grew up oalc, even the one in Brush Prairie and the new building in Yacolt; my folks owned property in Yacolt so I know most of the people there in that town and in that church.
I have posted quite a bit here and on other sites. My first impulse is to warn you to run away as fast as you can, and never look back, yet I know God has a plan for each of us, and I cant pretend to know what His is for you and your family. I am very glad you are searching for some information and backgroud before attending a church... that was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do.
"The problem is with people who see these rules as the means of salvation. I highly doubt that the church preaches, "Wear a skirt, and you will go to heaven." The thought is simply that by wearing a skirt (if you are female), you are showing respect for the Lord."
You said it yourself "The problem is with people who see these rules as the means of salvation." That is exactly what they do at that church. Try not following the rules and see how fast you are condemned to hell. If its simply the thought of a skirt showing respect, than watch what happens if you dont wear one and want to show your respect in some other way (other than what the preachers there have decided) and how fast you are again condemned to hell. Its easy for many there to verbalize a quaint, simple church, and they will deny the term "rules", but the reality of attending the church and what must be done and believed in to fit in, is extremely different.
"does the OALC really only believe their members are going to heaven, or do they simply believe that you must believe in the teachings of Christ?" Unfortunately they really do believe that ONLY thier members are going to heaven PERIOD. EVERYONE else is "DEAD faith" Any other interpretation of 'believing in the teachings of christ' and/or trying to follow the bible and respecting God, (ie chosing a different interpretation of dressing modestly) they honestly do consider a SIN and unworthy of heaven. You will be called disobedient, called before the church for blastphemy and possibly even evicted with a condemnation strait to hell. (my personal experiences) Yet they will act sad and call you bitter and hardhearted, making it all your fault; when all you were trying to do was read your bible and listen to the Holy Spirit; praying earnestly It would speak to you and your hearts yearnings and searchings... questioning the discrepancies you found in the church teachings and what you read in the bible... THAT is an unforgivable SIN that you will surely never save yourself from hell if you commit.
If you are curious, by all means, go check it out. There are definately some wonderful people there. I love (and miss) them so much. I have never had such love shown for me when I was there, nor such disrespect and hate when I chose to leave... They dont know any better, they follow what they are told, and I believe many do have a heart after Jesus; they are just sorely misguided by that church, yet are condemned to stay. Just go with objectiveness and please, please compare EVERYTHING you hear and see to what is written in the bible!! Pray that GOd will guide you and be active in listening and learning, and God will reward your seeking heart and show you where He needs you and your family to be.
Some more two cents I kept thinking about after my last post...
"Church rules are set up to protect believers from Satan's temptations. What is so wrong with a church full of rules?"
I believe GODs 'rules' are set up to protect believers from Satan's temptations. So there is nothing wrong with a church full of GODs rules, but everything wrong with a church full of MAN's rules. Guidelines, suggestions and interpretations are one thing, but that church uses the guidelines, suggestions and interpretations as a deciding factor if one is a "believer/Christian" or not, and going to heaven, or not. They claim they can tell a person's soul condition by looking at that persons exterior (if they are being obediant to the preachers 'advice')
Also ask any of them if is preached that they are the only church with salvation, the only people being saved. Then ask if that person, individually (of thier own thoughts and discernement) believe the same? Most people there have a hard time reconciling thier own thoughts, interpretations, questions etc with those ideas preached; yet its a sin to be different than the preachers and they may or may not admit it (especially to a newcomer with possible interest) discord among members and preachers is a big no-no. They will smile (vacantly) and state how much trust they have in thier wonderful, loving and precious preacers.
ALso, you will hear many stories about those who have "left" the church. Be aware that the beliefs about those who have "left" are rarely based on that persons own experience/s (either the speakers or the one who "left") but rather on what the preachers preach about those who have "left" (ie everyone who left only wanted to do as thier flesh desired, didnt really want to follow after God, were bitter and self seeking etc) To know the true story (of most anything there) you need to spend time talking with the people involved. Something about that culture encourages gossip like a dry brush fire. (No one is ill intended I dont think, just ignorant. Its just the culture of not allowing discord or free thought, and in not knowing first yet still repeating what their "precious, loving" preachers have told them is true; and they dont know either. Its a generalized, discriminatory (untrue) belief they have about anyone not in thier church)
I am very appreciative to those who have responded to my post. My prayers are with you all. I know that everyone on this site is truly seeking the will of God. I am still with questions of my own...please don't be offended by anything I say, I am only typing what is in my mind and looking for guidance from fellow Christians....I am curious to know if there is a church out there where members freely cover their heads in church and wear skirts, but do NOT feel the need to judge others. My guess is that this would be too good to be true. I just don't feel ok about going to worship with a bunch of people in jeans singing some worship song off of the radio. Not because wearing jeans is sinful, but because it pleases the Lord to dress according to our gender. Not because the radio is evil, but because songs sung for the purpose of worship should be for that purpose only. I'm sick of feeling like I am attending a dead-faith Christian concert every Sunday. I don't think the OALC is the one and only "true Church", but where is the dedication to worship and self-discipline outside of the OALC? Some say, "I am fully dedicated to the Lord" but then they wear clothing that they know brings about impure thoughts by others (i.e. tight jean) and gob on layers of make-up. Do not tell me you wear make-up for unselfish reasons. You are ashamed of the beautiful face your God gave you! This is not a sin because 'the preacher said so'. This is a sin because of a much more obvious reason- it does not please the Lord! A preacher may remind you of this, but he did not come up with it out of thin air. I feel lost in my own "religion" of sorts. I want to worship in a church and raise my children in a good Christian church. I have found many that claim to believe in the same principles that I do, but no one in these churches reflects these principles in their lifestyle. I suppose that is what has drawn me to the OALC. I don't want to join a 'cult'. I just want to be among other Christians who live their life in a simple and "unworldly" (for lack of a better term) way. I know that many will respond to this with "it is not what's on the outside that is important". I know this. However, I also know that the way we dress and act can be tools for expressing the dedication and love for Christ that is in our hearts. It not only shows others around us our dedication, but also serves as a reminder for ourselves. At the church that I currently attend, I would actually be looked down upon for covering my head or dressing up. They would say "poor girl, she is not free in Christ." This is ironic to me because it is the opposite situation as most people blogging here. It is kind of amusing in some ways. But truly, I (maybe like some OALCers??) am actually LOOKING for a church with higher standards (or "rules"- it doesn't matter what you call them). And I (this is just a wavering belief- please don't take offense) believe that any good Christian would want to follow any decent "rule" thrown their way if it might possibly please our wonderful Lord. I'm sorry that I have rambled on for so long...I'm just, well... searching :-)
http://www.crechurches.org/
exoalc - I only meant to stir a discussion on the things running through my head. I did not mean to offend you or your current beliefs. I also did not mean that popular Christian music = dead faith. There are probably (I am not the judge) many true Christians out there that attend churches who offer this type of music. That said, I only meant that at my current church I feel distracted by the "worship team" who sing on microphones (shouldn't we all sing together in our worship?), elevated so that all can see them, and play so many instruments that I can hardly hear myself think. Also,the music that they choose to sing has not been (in many cases) chosen for its scriptural significance, but on how it sounds to the cultured ears of the worship team. I think that there is a time and a place for popular Christian music (I'm sure the OALC would disagree with me on this). I just don't feel right about placing it in the worship service. What I said about "dead faith" was a separate issue that I should have elaborated on further instead of placing it with my comment on music. I call them people of "dead faith" because the only time they ever do anything Christian-like is when they stumble into church on Sunday mornings (in what looks to be whatever they found on the floor that morning) and then claim to be "Christians". I must confess that I am not much better at this stage in my life, but I am truly seeking change. I hope that I have clarified myself a little better. I also hope that you are still open to discussion with me, even if we can't see eye to eye on everything.
Searching,
exoalc didn't sound offended to me. I am not sure why you assume exoalc is offended. What was written there just sounded like a couple of statements to me.
You know I have been alot of years out of the OALC and have attended and visited many churches, almost exclusively I have heard the terminology 'dead faith' used in the OALC. Interesting that you should use it so often. Yes, I am aware that that terminology comes from the Biblical book of James.
Go in peace.
Does anyone out there from the Battle Ground area know if any Weisenborns still attend the OALC or ALC? Just curious- thanks.
searching: I can understand your position regarding music in some churches. When I was looking for a church to attend, I wanted to participate and connect with God and other Christians; I did not want to attend a performance. I found many churches held performances and the "audience" simply sat for the entire service.
I have also had similar thoughts regarding the dress (as in how any of us dress, not just dresses for women) When I left the church is when I felt I could decide on my own to dress in a feminine manner; when I attended the church I hated it because of all the social and salvation sentiments attached to being female. I can now actually enjoy being feminine as God created me to be. I do feel men and women alike were created as such, each beautiful and for a wonderful, devine purpose, yet many do not realize this.
ALso, I have been disappointed as our entire US culture seems so relaxed in thier dress code. I would love to have participated in the days when people dressed thier best, and took care to groom themselves; I think gowns and suites are fantastic and Im sad we cant dress like that now days, without being mistaken for a prom date or a wedding party. It seems we went from one extreme to the other: overdressed and pompous to slobs. There must be a middle ground somewhere :) I dont know if it will be found in any one culture or church, but rather within ourselves. Thats what Ive decided for me anyhow.
I guess none of that has a spiritual spin on it though. Maybe because of my experience within the oalc I have decided to be careful what I place into the "required for salvation" category. I completely agree with the modesty concept, and I have my standards (pretty high, probably because of my oalc upbringing) yet I can still leave that up to an individual to interpret, rather than a "set of rules" regarding the length of skirts, if jeans are allowed, if heads MUST be covered etc. If you feel God is speaking to your heart, of course listen.
I dont know much about other really "outwardly conservative" churches/beliefs, but I think are a rare few within the oalc who participate freely and because they feel God speaking to thier hearts. Its definately external pressure and rules. Thats sad really. And I am not speaking for everyone, only of the ones I knew and know.
Best wishes on your spiritual journey
exoalc I really appreciated your post. You put into words much of my experiences and thoughts. Thank you.
This topic has been bothering me most of the day. The issues I had with the oalc, and still have with any church I consider attending are not cloths and music. Those are minor, exterior things.
Like Searching asked; do they really believe they are the only ones (religion/church/faith) on this earth that are saved? (oalc yes) Also, do they believe God can and will 'speak' to an individual,(oalc no) or only through a mediator such as the preachers? (oalc yes) Do they believe the Holy Spirit moves and is alive today, available to anyone seeking, (oalc no) or again only to select few? (oalc yes, the preachers when they are asked to speak)Do they follow other teachings besides the bible? (oalc yes, LLL) Do they compare thier belief system to the bible? (oalc no) Are they educated and/or knowledgable about the bible? Or at least familiar with all of it? (oalc no, no and no. they are not ordained, in fact believe that to be too much head knowledge that gets in the way of true salvation. They also stick to a few select passages out of the entire bible)Do they reach out to their community, trying to share Christ' love (oalc no) or do they close themselves off? (oalc yes. Friendship -or more than absolutely neccessary contact- with 'the world' -anyone not from that church- is enminty -making an enemy of- with God.) Are thier actions (such as how they chose to dress) motivated out of love for Christ and a desire to be obediant to Him, or out of fear, requirement, a list of rules and/or a desire to be obediant to the preachers? Who is thier motivator? Christ or a preacher? (I do not believe they are one and the same as the oalc seem to)
These are issues of salvation for me, and are some of the cause for my decision to continue searching for another church.
hp3- I completely understand why you see dress and music as unimportant in the scheme of things. In a way, I do as well. The reason I am looking at these issues in choosing a church really comes from my own church background. At the church I currently attend, no one knows each other very well, and most people don't "have the time" or the care to do so. It is a drive through window for "Christians". Therefore, things like 'do they study the Bible' and 'do they put faith in God' didn't really matter. I never associate with them (the people), and therefore, we pretty much keep our beliefs to ourselves. Most of the things you listed that were important in a church to you, I see as individual decisions (although I can see how you see this differently coming from the OALC). In my church no one tells you things that you could possibly be offended by- at all. Which is sad really because it means that there is no passion. But, for example, I do not know what it is like for someone to tell me that the church is the only way to heaven and that I must listen to the preacher. In my mind I believe I could just continue in my own beliefs. I know that just 'taking the good and leaving the bad' is not as easy as it sounds. I suppose it is just tempting to someone who has not been through what you have.
Thanks for your comments hp3, you have really helped me to think about things. I still hope to attend the church (if I can find someone to go with me), but only to see for myself what it is like, not to join. I live surrounded by this religion and I feel that until I experience it firsthand I will always feel that 'what if it is right for me.' I know to you this must sound crazy. I do hear your warnings. And- one thing will never change in my heart- I will always know that being a member of a church, the building/denomination does NOT make you saved, nor does leaving send you to hell. Also, my God does NOT want me to feel like a wretch, otherwise he wouldn't give me so many blessings in life. I will always be joyful for his love and mercy- no church or preacher can take this away!
I personally couldn't attend a church that degraded every other church on the planet. And if you admit you don't believe the OALC is the ONLY true Christian church on earth, its a sin and you will be forced to confess that sin to another individual. If you refuse, you will be taken in front of the church.Is that the spirit of Christ? Think about that please.
Vist many churches, not just the OALC. But if the OALC is right for you, then thats your personal choice.
To Searching, Have you went to Hockinson ALC it kind of sounds like a church you might like, it is some what like the OALC but I believe not so strict. Most people don't wear headcoverings there but some do so you should not feel out of place if you are to wear one.
The Hockinson ALC is a church I have been looking at and plan on trying. I listened to their sermon online a few weeks ago and I felt like I really got a lot out of it. Can anyone tell me more about the church's lifestyle beliefs. Do they have rules regarding dress? Do they practice birth control? I have read their doctrine online. If anyone could tell me what church life is like there- that would be very helpful.
God's peace!
LLLreader sez: to searching--I kind of thought you were an oalc member since you seem to know the language. I have been to many churches and I think it's a catch 22 situation. Do I have the right to judge other's level of faith? I don't think so. But neither am I required to worship in a church where I feel uncomfortable. I'm a jeans and t-shirt gal, but wouldn't go to church dressed like that or, god forbid, show up at a funeral dressed casually. I think it shows respect to dress up a little. But, I'm perfectly happy with people who don't give a hoot about what they wear. Several home school mom's I have met are comfortable wearing long skirts, even though it's not required by their church. Some churches you go to are so friendly and welcoming, in others no one says hello. I wouldn't attend a church where I would be looked down on for covering my head, (well, maybe one or two could look down on me, but not the whole congregation). Neither would I attend a church that would look down on me if I didn't cover my head. It's just up to us to find the right place. God will let you know when you find it. God Bless the searchers--God is with them, leading them by the hand.
Searching, I agree with LLLreader. I try to dress in nice clothes when I go to church, but will admit I have also gone in jeans on occasion. At one time, it bothered me that people didn't always "dress up" to come to church, and then I realized that, regardless of how they dressed, thank God they were attending church rather than doing all of the other things they could have been doing in that time slot.
I am a Roman Catholic, and if you want a structured church that is quite conservative, opposing abortion, the death penalty, and yet striving to a socailly responsible in their support for the poor and oppressed around the world, you might try that. However, from your writings, I don't know that you'd like that -- and that's OK. I see women at nearly every Mass with covered heads, yet it's certainly not required anymore, and most don't do it. Most of the people that go to the church I do seem to dress quite nicely when they attend church, but there are also the jeans and sweatshirt crowd -- and that's OK.
The masses vary in their music content, with some masses very traditional, with a small choir leading the congregational singing, and the songs the old and loved tunes. Other masses have more modern music, which makes them appealing to the youth in particular -- and that's OK too. I happen to like the old traditional stuff, but if a young person wants to sing praise to the Lord in a voice more comfortable to them, more power to them. Again, thank God they're coming to church.
Whatever it is you are searching for, God will help you eventually find it. Our priest this morning told a story that resonated with me -- he said the girl asked God for a red convertible, and her father bought her a red tricycle. (Oh, I forgot -- she was 5.) Some years later, she asked again for the red convertible, and her father bought her a red bicycle. The point the priest was making is that God answers our prayers of want with what we need at the time. Just keep looking and asking, and God will always provide what is needed! God bless you on your journey.
Searching,It is taught that birth control is wrong , but there are certain times when it is alright to use. You will not be told you will go to hell if you use it. There are some who go there that use it to space and don't feel it's wrong. Most ladies wear dresses but there are some who wear dress pants. There is a whole range of people from those who wear headcoverings to those who wear makeup.
Searching, Please come and visit us at Hockinson. I have gone their my whole life and believe that the truth of God's Word is preached. I know that the pasters there would enjoy sitting down with you if you wanted to talk in depth about what we believe. Several are there most every day of the week.
Thank you to all who have responded! I plan to attend Hockinson ALC and give it a try. I just had a few more questions beforehand, however. Are there any special rules I should know about regarding worship? Do men and women sit separate? Also, my husband and I are a very young couple. Are there other young families at your church? Do they spend time together outside of church (similar to OALC gatherings) ? I really appreciate the time everyone is taking to help answer my questions. It helps a lot!
God bless
I am in my early twenties is that the age you are talking about "searching"? We have a youth group, the focus of it is mostly for young singles but married couples are welcome. Otherwise, many people open their homes to gatherings and whatnot. There isn't anything I can think of right now to tell you. Families sit together. We have a balcony where a lot of the younger people and couples sit but thats not a requirement. Depending on the Sunday we have a meal. Feel free to eat and visit we don't require you to bring anything. umm.. We take collections and again you are not required to give. So just bring yourself and an open heart and ears to listen =)Hopefully I will get the chance to meet you.
searching: it sounds like the church you currently attend would be difficult for me to feel comfortable at, regardless of thier or my beliefs. I need to connect with people, to share our hopes, dreams, lives, ideas and opinions etc. I need friendships where we really know each others hearts, strengths and most importantly, weaknesses. So we can support each other through life and towards our goals.
I have been curious as to the idea of "relationships" that some churches seem to focus on. "relationship" with God/Christ, with others etc. Great idea absolutely, but biblically based as part of christianity and Christs teacings? I definately need to continue reading my bible. It could be that this is simply a "new" concept to me (as an ex oalc)
Its funny that Ive never considered attending another of the "LL branch" churches. I was raised that they were even worse than "dead faith" because they "knew the right way" and chose to think they knew a better way and were blasphemous etc. I dont believe that now of course, but it was interesting to see you considering both of them (Hockingson and Brush Prairie/Yacolt), to look back on my history and realize that in my searching for a new church home, I didnt ever consider the other branches. A "worldy" church seemed a more appropriate place to start looking. Yet also looking back, I knew people from other churches and even had a good friend who's father was a preacher there.
Now I have simply decided to follow the bible, and a church that wants the same, and I dont want to attend any church that associates itself with anyone else's teachings (Luther, Lasteadius etc)
I was brought up the ALC in New Ipswich and still belong to ALC but have since moved to S.C. It make me sick that anyone can say only thier church members are going to heaven. Since living down here I have met people that do not go to my church or one certain church and they are christains. Where in the bible does it say this one certain church will only make it to heaven. Jesus would not had to die on the cross if it were so. It is also almost impossible for someone to die without sin, we are all human and we sin everyday, in word thought or deed. Also I read and can't remember if it was on this site but someone said the OALC believe that if a 7 year old dies without being forgiving of thier sins they will go to hell. That makes me sick, my son is 7 and I don't see him doing things that if he died he would not go to heaven. Thank God we are not the judge of where people go because if so we would all be going to hell if it was up to some people.
MAC
MAC Its nice to hear from people in the different branches of Lasteadian churches, especially that there are some current(churches adn individuals) that do not practice shunning and discrimination. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
I am finally truly "with Him"! Praise God! But to get to this point, I traveled a very rough, long journey. This is something that I have learned along the way. There is a difference between 'forgive' and 'apologize'. I think in the oalc 'apologize' does not exist in their vocabulary. 'Forgive' is used in it's place.
APOLOGIZE: To regretfully acknowledge a fault or offense.
FORGIVE: To absolve from payment of.
IMHO, we, as humans, can apologize, but it is Jesus who forgives. I haven't read anywhere in the Bible that someone other than Jesus "absolved payment" for my sins.
Searching, I was wondering if you went to Hockinson ALC yet and if you did what you thought.
with him: Good point.
Searching: I also am curious as to your findings on your search...
Hockinson ALC is quite like the oalc. No doubt about it. I attended most of my life there and have loads of family there. It reeks of exclusiveness and legalism. check out the alc blogspot spearheaded by Hock. members. can anyone say holy rollers?
In case I hear denial, my extremely large family still uses the "believe all your sins forgiven in Jesus name and blood as the foundation of their faith. As do most of the others.
I would love to sign my name here but Im not interested in having my kids deal with the fall out.
I have soooooo many stories about the hock. alc. many that sound like the oalc. go to facingtruth blogspot for more insight on the hock. and other alc.
Dont be fooled for a minute. we go to another church and except for a very few people in hock. the majority think its a sin. Just look at the hock. alc blogspot I mentioned earlier they refer to anyone who goes elsewhere as "church hoppers" and worse!
And dont get me started on the last conventions (meetings in Oalc speak) The Sunday Morning sermon was all about asking forgiveness to be saved. Just like we've all been taught.
-same annon as above
Yes, we all have a father in Heaven, but who is your mother on earth?
I couldnt find the blog(s) you mentioned. Do you have an exact address? Thank you
To HP3,
here is the blog address:
http://facingtruth.blogspot.com/
I found this and thought I would post it here:
A Church goer wrote a letter to the editor of a newspaper and
complained that it made no sense to go to church every Sunday. "I've
gone
for 30 years now," he wrote, "and in that time I have heard
something like 3,000 sermons. But for the life of me, I can't remember a
single one of them. So, I think I'm wasting my time and the pastors are
wasting theirs by giving sermons at all."
This started a real controversy in the "Letters to the Editor"
column, much to the delight of the editor. It went on for weeks until
someone wrote this clincher:
"I've been married for 30 year s now. In that time my wife has
cooked some 32,000 meals. But, for the life of me, I cannot recall the
entire menu for a single one of those meals. But I do know this.. They
all nourished me and gave me the strength I needed to do my work.
If my wife had not given me these meals, I would be physically dead
today.
Likewise, if I had not gone to church for nourishment, I would
be spiritually dead today!" When you are DOWN to nothing.... God
is up To Something! Faith sees the invisible, believes the incredible
and receives the impossible! Thank God for our physical AND our
spiritual nourishment!
I am 45 and left the church when I was 15...I'm so excited to see this type of information and discussion taking place!
I did have some great memories of attending meetings, traveling...getting to know other children when I attended OAL, but I knew in my heart that it couldn't be the ONLY way to salvation...and I am SO happy now...I urge you to be strong and to act with total love whenever you deal with another member of OAL...it will give you strength.
all are welcome to the ALC
I will post! How do you go to church and sit knowing your living a lie.You lie to everyone. A fine christen example you are. Makes me so confused. Do I really belong in this fake church.MAKES ME JUST WANT TO DIE. I am the one that caused all the pain because I was too smart to believe the lies. I should have never came to church then everyone could go about peacefully. That is the problem when worldly's come to the oalc. They know too much. This church confuse's me. Do I stay and hear all the whispers on Sunday. will I be the famous one that ruined a marriage. Yes that would be me. Oh but listen to what the preachers they say.Ok! I just want to die. I have nothing I don't belong in this church. I am a worldly and always will be.............
You are a child of the living God, who breathed the world into existence.
and no one, no church nor church member, can take that away...
I am a member of the oalc. I have to admit that much of what I have read here makes me sad.
I am truly sorry if anyone at any time has been offended in any way by what members of our church have done and/or said.
Most of the postings on this subject are quite old, so I won't try to reply to them, but I would like to say four things:
1) There are two rules in Christianity: to love God and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Just two. It is true that other things are preached to be a "sin" but these are really preached this way in relation to the two rules. This is not to say that members of our church do not break these rules; we are human. Unfortunately we do not always show the love we should to every other human we meet; and we break these laws in other ways too.
2) This is related to the first. We do believe that our faith will lead us to heaven, and most of us would not want to belong to a different faith. I wonder just why someone would attend a church where they did NOT believe that which was taught was the truth? In any event, to get to what I wanted to say - Jesus says that "Other sheep have I that are not of this fold..." I think this pretty clearly shows that we could not believe that those outside our faith will not be saved.
3) I wonder why some people seem to think that I would not rejoice in reading all of the Bible (I admit - mostly the New Testament). Not to say that I read it as much as I should, but I ENJOY reading the Bible, and I enjoy discussing it with my children and friends. I guess I don't understand the comments about this subject.
4) Please, please do not judge a FAITH by the actions of a few of its MEMBERS. While I try to be a Christian example, I am for sure not perfect (no one is) - we are all faulty.
As I said, I have not been to this site before, but would truly enjoy a sincere discussion. I'll try to check back soon.
God's Peace to you all!
A weak brother in faith
Brother-
Please understand that the majority of us have been members of your church (or similar LLL church) and now found faith that we didnt even know existed. Brother, you too can KNOW that you KNOW you are saved. There doesnt have to be any doubt about your salvation. Jesus loves you as much as anyone else, and please be open to what could be wrong about your faith. As someone asked on extoots, would you want to know about it if your faith was wrong? If there could be salvation for you if you left? I ask this with love hoping you can come up with a straight yes or a no, because very few can. I left the OALC a long time ago and it took me a long time to be able to answer that question even to myself and that bothered me. The only answer I could give was "It isnt wrong." Even now that I have left the OALC and found joy and freedom in Christ, I can tell you that I would want to know if my faith was wrong or not. But it is different for me because people like me are not afraid of talking about our faith to others. Those that are free know that your faith CAN NOT be taken away from you because you talked to someone you "shouldnt" have,read somethingyou "shouldnt" have or even listened to someone you "shouldnt" have. We that are free in our faith are not warned about talking or listning to someone of other faith, because not only do we need to witness to those who need the love of Jesus, we are secure enough in our faith that we know the Bible says man cannot take away our faith. I just believe Heaven is a much bigger place than you believe it is. Until you ask the questions you need to ask, you will never know for sure. I will pray for you.
Brother-
One more ting. When Jesus said "Other Sheep have I that are not of this fold," why do you automatically assume he his referring to the OALC? Did you know that there are MANY LLL churches? Most all of the LLL churches do not associate with any other LLL church and claims to hold the only path to Heaven, and believe Lars Levi Leastadius to be their prophet. So do other churches such as mormans, Jehovas witness, and others. I didnt even know there were so many LLL churches until I left the church. I know that you believe that those outside your faith feel there is many ways to Heaven. Not so. There is only one way and it is a narrow gate. The EXACT same faith is professed at countless churches all over the world. Evangelism will create more churches and more souls will be saved. Sorry Brother, but I see ZERO evangelism at your church. If you truly have the only saving faith, dont you think it is pissing God off that you wont tell people? Sure God could do all your work for you, but He wants us to live our life for Him. I believe that the OALC stance that if souls are searching then the OALC will be found directly contradicts what Jesus said about making deciples of all nations, and spreading his word. I believe also that when people are raised from childhood to believe a system of beliefs with a lot of fear behind it, (you will go to hell if you depart from this faith)
then it becomes nearly impossible to see the errors in their belief. All doubts are taught to be a sin, so questioning is a sin. It was absolutely true for me. Anyway enough from me and looking foreward to what you have to say.
Why are you on here brother. that is a sin shoot everything is a sin at church. I guess i will burn in hell then. I cant understand why im there may be because i am a closet drunk and mental. I can live the lie and no one will know who i am. Oh thank you they say HAA! For what!
You sound miserable Brother. Sure, you can live a lie, but it's not good for you mentally , psysically. or spiritually. Take care of yourself and I will pray that you find peace.
Brother, you have written a reasoned and calm explanation of your faith, and I apllaud you for it. As an ex-oalc member myself, my experience is that most of the church members are not as open minded as you are. You are the first member I have ever heard talk about Jesus' "other sheep". The message that so many of us have heard, over and over, and in many localities, from behind many altars, is that anyone outside the oalc is lost and will burn in hell. My own mother finally stopped going to the oalc church when the local "preacher" condemned her brother, sister, mother and father to hell -- they were members of that dangerous sect, the Finnish Apostolic Church. They were kind and gentle people, who treated others well their entire lives.
Because you seem open to a calm discussion, please continue to post here or on the extoots blog. I look forward to visiting with you some more.
Peace be with you!
brother: thank you for posting. Its nice to hear from an OALCer in a sincere, respectful manner. I appreciate the issues you have addressed and your personal points of view.
I agree with cvow that you do seem more open than any oalcer I grew up with or know; especially concerning the idea of Jesus' sheep being not of this fold. Your interpretation is as my own, yet I have not heard any other oalcer with this idea.
Also, as an ex member, I was deeply rejected, ridiculed and hurt by many, many members from that church, yet you are the first one I have encountered that apologizes for any hurts caused (without even knowing what they are) and asks that your faith not be judged by the actions of a few. I am assuming that since you are apologizing for any hurts that may have been inflicted, you are acknowledging hurts have indeed happened... again more than I have enountered from many members. My experience has been to have my experiences completely denied as truth and more accusations and name calling thrown my way. So again, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you not taking my experiences personally onto yourself, and not getting defensive. I sincerely wish I had had more encounters with others, that included thoughts such as you have expressed.
I can tell you though, that the actions of a "few members" can impact how I feel about the church when those "few members" are the preachers who guide the church.
Yet I do not harbor ill feelings or ill will to any who do find peace within that church. I still wish each and every one, inside and outside of that church, and any other church, the peach of God be with you.
Its nice to hear that you enjoy reading your bible. Do you also read along side the Sunday sermans? I am curious. I only know that I remember the preachers discouraging members from reading the bible without thier interpretation, and from "head knowledge." Enjoyment of Gods word was never an issue. I also now enjoy reading the bible, and am continually amazed at how I can feel the Holy Spirit working when I sit still and listen :)
Thank you again for posting.
Brother-
Do you realize how stupid you and your religion look when you say you want a respectable dialogue then a few responses pop up, maybe a few questions, then you dive back into your cave? This is rediculious. Have some guts and man up to what you said you would do and respond to those who respectfully responded to you. If you have read the posts after yours but not commented, then for some reason, you are a COWARD!!!
Nothing else to say, other than this OALC group is nothing more than modern day pharasies with their pious attitudes, and I am sick of it!!!!!!!!!!!
Anon 12:58, I don't think your approach is going to open any meaningful discussion. I hear a lot of anger coming through and perhaps it's justified, but if we want to have a calm discussion, then we all need to be calm. Perhaps brother cannot access the internet at every hour of every day. What brother had to say was about the calmest, most reasoned correspondence we've had from an active OALC member, and it wasn't loaded with lots of "Laestadius Speak". Please, let's give him a chance. I'd like to hear more.
Ditto cvow.
In the past I also had a lot of anger, and sometimes still today, and I do believe it is justified as there are many issues within the church.
Yet I realize I dont get to direct it at every oalcer. I can be angry about my issues with the church and some people in it, and I can strongly disagree with the church, yet again, I dont get to direct it at every oalcer. I ask to be treated as an individual, not as a generalized "worldly" and I will extend the same courtesy to everyone else, including an oalcer.
I can also disagree without name calling and/or putdowns. There can be no meaningful or in depth discussions that include those. If you want to share your issues, please do, but direct your emotions towards those that have hurt you and those situations, not at just anyone.
I pray we can each find peace and Gods love, wherever He has called us to be.
I also would like to welcome Brother to post here. A calm, reasoned OALC responce is indeed rare and welcome. I, too have issues with the church, but realize everyone is a unique being, with their own experiences.
I also know there are many OALCers who secretly question the church teachings, and can be helped by these blogs, just like the rest of us have been, me especially.
Welcome, Brother!
Hello-
My original plan had been to try to continue the discussion with "love the oalcers" but my life became rather busy with elderly parents and other demands. I will try to check up more often, "anonymous" #3, but I promise that it wasn't a matter of diving back into my cave, just back into life. Sorry if my slowness seemed like something else! Sometime maybe we can talk more about Pharisees, but maybe later. :-) Also, it would help to keep track of "who is who" (whom is whom?) if you could give yourself a screen name - as was mentioned earlier, it is hard to keep track of all of the anons.
Another problem being writing back late is too many to talk to all at once. For "love the oalcers", I wrote this a few days ago but finally got a chance to respond today:
Thank you for your prayers and concern. "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" James says in his Epistle. I do know and believe that I am saved, not through any work of my own but through the suffering and death of Lord Jesus. Yes, to answer your question, I would want to know, but I tell you truly that I have seen many faiths on my jagged road searching for true living Christianity, and this is the only one I have found (so far at least) whose doctrine is all the teachings of Jesus and His apostles. (I will tell you though that knowing just what these teachings are, especially with the apostles is not always as clear as with the teachings of Lord Jesus.) And also important - this is the only place where I have felt free.
I agree that others cannot steal your faith, and that Jesus will never leave me or forsake me. I guess I don't recognize the "rules" you are alluding to... how can we confess our faith if we never speak to those of different (or no) faith?
Yes, heaven is a big place - "In my Father's house there are many mansions." But Jesus also says "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth into life, and few there be that find it." It would be interesting to discuss this seeming contradiction.
Regarding your question about assuming He is referring to the OALC when he talks about his fold, I don't. When Jesus said this it was more 1800 years before Laestadius started preaching. Jesus was talking about His flock. This flock has been larger at times (especially at the time of the apostles) and smaller at others, and has often been dispersed by the enemy, although the Light has never been extinguished. I do believe that those who believe as I do are part of His fold now, and that Laestadius was a powerful preacher of the truth, but I would hesitate to call him a prophet. Maybe I don't really understand what a prophet is (isn't it one who reveals what will happen in the future?). I think his gifts were more along the lines of exhortation.
Yes, I know there are other Laestadian churches, as well as other Apostolic churches and other Christian churches. As I mentioned I have experience with many of these although not all.
I don't really know that my faith is THE only saving faith, but I know that it is A saving faith. I guess I would be surprised to learn that there is more than one fold at this time, but I know for certain that getting into arguments about things one doesn't really know about (like the only "correct" date for Easter and different interpretations of the Holy Supper) is a good way for Christians to become angry at each other unnecessarily. Some things we just don't know.
Regarding evangelism, perhaps you could investigate more about this as I know there have been and continue to be efforts in Western, Central, and Eastern Europe at this time, mostly from the Scandinavian congregations. You are right - we have a responsibility to tell others about the Word and the redemptive work of Jesus. I hope that soon more work can begin in other parts of the world as well. I don't really see the contradiction you mention though (regarding the belief that God will lead His own to His congregation). I think we can believe this as well as do a better job (all of us) at spreading the Word.
Your last section is what I most don't understand about your discussion. It is true that we are taught to honor and fear God. But even more we are taught to love God and especially to love His Son, by Whose sacrifice and our faith all of our sinful deeds and thoughts are covered by His Robe of Righteousness. When I am in church or at a small gathering of Christian brothers and sisters, the feelings are those of love and thankfulness, not of fear. I just don't see the fear. The fear was there, palpable and unbearable, before I was in living faith. I knew then that I was on the road to hell. But once I came into living faith that fear was gone. It is true that doubting is taught to be a sin - but this is the doubting of our salvation and of the redemptive work of Christ for us as worthless beings. We are humans, and as such we continue to sin - our flesh has not become a Christian. The sinful thoughts of hatred come at times, and of adultery, and sinful deeds as well. Thanks to God that all of these sins can be forgiven, and the only gift the Judge requires is that of a penitent heart.
Finally. a question for you, friend. At the start of this letter I referred to the Epistle of James, Chapter 5, Verse 16. What are your thoughts about the sentence that comes just before the one I quoted?
God's Peace to you, "love the oalcers" and to all. I will try to find the time to reply to the rest of you soon.
A weak brother in faith.
Brother-
I dont have enough time to respond to everything right now but I will. It is obvious you are not born and raised OALC. Almost all converts to OALC converted to the church because they found a spouse or were hanging with friends they thought were "cool." Also, almost every convert (which isnt very many, really) was not raised in a healthy christian home that went to a healthy church on Sundays. I believe the fact that you are willing to share so calmly without sending others to Hell like other OALC posters, and that you are a convert is no coincidence. By the way, Brother, if you look on the inside front cover of some of LLL`s books, you will see where it says he is quote "the great prophet." I wish I could remember which book(s) it says it in but if you cant find it, then I will go to the attic to find out for you. Maybe it is "Voice of One Crying In the Wilderness", or the "Fathers Voice." Check those. I will say more later, and others should feel free to respond as well. Keep in touch Brother.
To continue -
Speaking of rules, I don't really know the "rules" of this place, but I will try to respond to each who has (I believe) posted a note to me. I guess I will have to be more diligent to keep up. :-) One thing I forgot to mention in the last post was I appreciated the sincere message "love the oalcer" sent, and I hope I did not cause offense by my reply.
To anonymous 5/01/2007 5:34 PM: You are right that many actions constitute sin, in that they either are not a part of loving God as we should or loving our neighbors as ourselves. We have also been warned that having the internet in the home (unless required for business) is a dangerous thing - which is another reason why it is difficult for me to respond in a timely way. There are many temptations on the internet as well as on television in and in movies, which is the reason for the warnings. But I hope you will not burn in hell. My father is a recovered alcoholic, and as for being "mental" that is a pretty gray line for anyone. We are all sinners, but there is hope for everyone. I hope things go better for you soon.
To anonymous 5/02/2007 9:50 PM: I had to go back and read what I said when I read your note. I still don't see what you see in my comment. I guess if I am miserable, ignorance is bliss. No, that sounds like I am making fun of what you are saying, but I do have deep joy and happiness in may faith and with my family and friends. I do wish I could be better at confessing my faith to others, though.
To cvow: Wow. I don't know if I have EVER heard what you have heard. I know that I have heard that our faith is the one true faith; like my father-in-law likes to say "One Church, One Faith, One Baptism, One Father of all." I think it would be possible to infer from something like this that everyone else "is lost and will burn in hell," but just because I believe my faith is a right and saving faith doesn't mean that I (or anyone else) has the right to condemn anyone to hell. There is One Judge, and it is not me. I also know a few members of the FAC, at least from my area, and the ones I know have quite varied personalities (just like those in my church!) but I haven't really talked about spiritual matters with them... although I have listened a few times. Unfortunately some people (from many churches as well as my own) often see things in black and white and are not as careful as they should be to think things through, and especially to be careful not to damage the work of God in others (I am talking about people in my church here). I have myself made that mistake. I also look forward to visiting with you more.
To hp3: Oh yes, I know that hurts have occurred, by me and by others. I know some people who have written here are put off by the word "sin", but I feel that damage to the work of God in anyone is a terrible sin. It is hard to think that we are loving our neighbor as ourselves when we don't talk to people because they are different, or even worse, make fun of them. If you still have those feelings, I hope that you will have the strength to go and talk to those who have ridiculed you, and ask them if they really feel that their action(s) they showed love to you, and if they don't think should repent. I know that it would not be easy, and it sounds like the fault was not yours, but sometimes to clear things up we have to make the first step. There is a place in the NT that warns the Christians not to show favoritism to the rich vs. the poor (I can't remember the place) but I am reminded about this place when I think of the hurts you received. I think just as bad as reviling (or looking down on) the poor is doing the same toward those who dress or look different from us. I think it is part of human nature to fear or shun those who are "different" or "outside our group" but that sure does not make it right.
Yes, I know that our preachers are sinful too - but at least they admit it. If a preacher has made you feel this way, I especially encourage you to talk to him.
Regarding discouragement from reading the Bible: I think (and I hope) that this is a misunderstanding. As far as I know it has always been encouraged, and most people I know (of my faith) mostly lament that they don't take enough time to do so. It is true that currently our preachers do not speak from prepared sermons, instead allowing the Holy Ghost to put the words into their mouths. However, I am pretty sure that if you asked them they would tell you the same as I have - that they do read the Bible (but not enough!).
Finally - I note that you are not the only one who seems to be surprised that I am being sincere and respectful. I am sorry if you have heard otherwise. Again - two Laws - (Love God and your neighbor as yourself) and I cannot feel that most people would want to mock or say hurtful things to themselves...
To anonymous 5/06/2007 12:58 PM: Maybe you can post again and we can talk more.
To hp3 again: FYI, It has been preached (in and out of church) by our preachers that even the use of the word "worldly" as a label is wrong. Unfortunately, it is a bad habit that for some it will take a while to break. The use of this term (or any term meant to divide or put down) can never be construed as Love.
To 4eyes: Hello to you as well. I would like to be very clear about this (if I have not already) that I don't question the church. However, I do know that everyone in our church (and in any church) is a fallible human being. Sometimes we need to be told of the places where we have fallen, or offended others, or taught something that is not right. I have a feeling that some of what I have said today might be pointed out to me in this way, but I hope in a way that allows us to continue to talk.
This is way too long, but maybe I am finally caught up with the postings. I will try to check back soon. Peace to all who read this, and try to hold me with a forgiving heart.
A weak brother in faith.
To Brother,
The next time your father in law says: "One church, one faith, one baptism", ask him to read Ephesians 4:5-6 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all ".
As you can see, it does not say one church, it says One Lord. Quite a difference!
Hello again-
To love the oalcers: It is true that I was not raised as a Christian, although I was raised in a very loving home. However, my conversion to Christianity had to do with my need for Christianity, not for any other reason; in fact I did not meet the woman who was to be my wife until later. Also, I have been a Christian for over thirty years, thanks to God, so I understand pretty well the doctrine of our faith. Or maybe your point was something else?
Regarding what was printed in the book - I am sure that you are correct. However, that does not make it right. I would not want to get into a fight or argument about it, but I just don't think the word prophet is the right one for him, personally.
I'd like to talk to you more when you have a chance, but as you can see it is difficult to find the time to do so more than once or twice a week (at least for now).
To 4eyes: You are correct of course, but it was me who quoted incorrectly, not my father-in-law. When I read what you wrote, I could hear his voice (in my head) saying just what you wrote! Thanks for the correction. So - what does "one faith" mean?
a weak brother in faith
To Brother,
One faith means everyone who believes in Lord Jesus' suffering and dying on the cross for us all, the sins of the whole world. A penitent sinner who believes this shall not perish.
I don't believe that passage explains the exclusivety of the OALC, do you?
I have been searching as the one from Yacolt has been for a church that holds to conservative worship and lifestyle without falling into absolute legalism. I must ask patiences as this post is not related to the most recent conversations I have just found this site (I wish I would have earlier, lots of reading to catch up on with posts!) I am from a very conservative background and am fairly new to the Clark county area. I grew up in a church were some women covered their heads (but not all)and most women wore conservative dresses/skirts (but not all) The worship was simple and reverent with old hymns and scripture. I have yet to find this in most of the congregations I have visited here. But wish to find that ,not because it is the only way of Christian worship and life, but becuase it is what I feel has been placed in my heart (Words so manby times seem insufficient and I feel I may be rambling, but also it is only fair to give an introduction). I have been so curious about the OALC as living here has been my first introduction to it and finally gained the courage to try services on several Sundays (a somewhat intimidating experience) I have returned several times out of continued curiosity I guess. I long for community that is so close knit and the fellowship of others that choose to live the same lifestyle I do, but am also aware of the dangers of exclusivity. I have some questions for certain: First I have wondered about the confessing if it is viewed as "required" for continuing salvation? I have read the post in this section and feel that maybe it just depends on who you ask how this is emphasized. But one of the most pressing questions is what is meant when the preacher said that the "highest light is in Swedish Lapland"? and referred to the "placing trust there" and "the Bethlehem of our faith" I was concerned at the idea that we should put faith anywhere but in the Saviour. I also believe I clearly heard the preacher when he said that the truly awakened heart is the one who comes to "true and living Christianity",and that he was speaking only of the OALC as that true Christianity. Oh but there are so many other questions I wish I could ask, but it is hard to find the words to speak. I yearn so to find that place where the Lord is truly worship in spirit, in word, and in deed. Any insights that can be lent would be most appreciated, especially from any one from the BG area. And if Searching is still keeping up on this at all, Has your searching been fruitful?
~God's Peace and Grace to you all
Searching in BG: I respect your wish for a simple service and life. Growing up in the oalc I also have the same wish today, yet it is so difficult to find; especially without running into exclusive groups. I grew up in teh BG area but I am no longer there, yet I wish you the best in your spiritual search.
You had a few questions and I can only answer from my own personal experience, having grown up in the church.
"First I have wondered about the confessing if it is viewed as "required" for continuing salvation?"
In my personal experience and advice given to me from the preachers in the oalc church, confession is absolutely required, thier way, with thier wording etc. In fact, I have had terrible experiences of being forced in front of the entire church to 'repent' (without ever having the opportunity to discuss the issue or my spiritual condition with anyone; I was informed they already knew)I was also informed that if I had refused to 'repent' I would no longer be welcome at the church. Also a dry eye during the "movement" (asking forgiveness time that follows every serman) is considered the sign of a cold and dry heart.
"But one of the most pressing questions is what is meant when the preacher said that the "highest light is in Swedish Lapland"? and referred to the "placing trust there" and "the Bethlehem of our faith" I was concerned at the idea that we should put faith anywhere but in the Saviour." You are absolutely correct to be concerned that anyone, any church, would place thier faith anywhere else but in the Savior, hence on of the many reasons I chose to leave that church. The "highest light in Swedish Laplands" they refer to is none other than Lars Luther Lasteaus (who started the religion by preaching to the swedish lap people -hence the skewed Bethleham reference) and the older preachers still in Sweden, referred to as the Elders are given the highest reverence and thier advice sought instead of prayer and referencing the bible. There is much reference and seeking in the writings of Lastadeaus and the Elders, but there is no trust given to prayer and even less seeking into the bible... It is considered opening the door to Satans temptations to read the bible (without the preachers or Elders interpretation) and solitary prayer (again without a preacher or Elder to do it for you) is considered vain, prideful, the dangerous door to self rightousness etc.
"I also believe I clearly heard the preacher when he said that the truly awakened heart is the one who comes to "true and living Christianity",and that he was speaking only of the OALC as that true Christianity." Again your intuition is absolutely correct... The OALC do indeed believe they are the ONE and ONLY true Christianity in the entire world, over the entire span of time. Yet if you study further into Lastadieaus teachings and history you will find there have been hundres of splits over the hundreds of years since he created this religion, and each "branch" considers themselves to be the ONE and ONLY, and even go so far as to deny other branches exist (except maybe one that split away from them some time ago) There is absolutely no room for discussion or allowances to this belief of exclusivity: OALC IS THE ONLY RIGHT WAY TO HEAVEN. PERIOD. I am thankful to have encountered a few members from the OALC congregation that do not agree with everything I have stated here, yet what I have stated is what I grew up hearing the preachers speak as truth, from the pulpet in a serman and to me when I went directly to them for questions. Yet if you can agree with them and let go of your individualism, they are truly a wonderful people who will embrace you and love you as you've never been loved. Just dont let it be known you disagree and dont try to start discussions with your question: I was labeled as having "dead faith" and "causing dissention" and told to repent or leave the church for such things.
So Brother, I appreciate your good faith in your fellow men, and I still try to nurture that in spite of my experiences with some men. I have indeed tried many, many times and in many, many ways to reconcile with the ones who have hurt me. Leaving the church was definately not my first choice over the years and it was a long and painful journey, yet with a bright and glorious ending when I discovered truth and comfort in the arms of my Saviour. I also had to realize that the reconciliation was not mine to make. I cannot warm cold and fearful hearts nor force anyone to love me. I can only try to work through my emotions, pray for the strength to be a light of the Saviours love and leave the rest up to Him.
To Searching in BG,
Listen to HP3. She is absolutely correct! I know. I was there.
Run from the OALC! Find a bible based church that does not follow Laestadian teaching, and does not tell you to attach yourself to the preachers or elders, but only the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!
God Bless.
God's Peace to all who may read here.
Again I feel a need to apologize for taking so long to respond; I was reminded today while attending a funeral for a young woman here in Battle Ground that I should check back here.
I hope some of you were able to attend the funeral today - it was a beautify wedding celebration for a Christian who has left this earth to meet her Saviour, although of course there is naturally some sadness too when one knows he won't be seeing her again for some time.
4eyes asked me a question way back on May 11th about exclusivity. I believe your question is this - do I believe that the OALC is the one true faith, and that all other faiths are wrong, and that all other souls are damned? It is important to know just what is contained in the question you are asking, so as not to assume something that was not intended.
For the first part of this question, I have to say that in much searching for the truth I have not found another church whose doctrine is comprised of the teachings of the Lord Jesus and his apostles. It sounds like you have either found such a church or are now without a church - if you have found the truth elsewhere, where is it? I would like to talk to you about this, but I really confess that while I believe there are Christians not (yet) of this fold, that there are not multiple folds... I don't believe that the OALC is the only true church that ever has BEEN - the first Christianity of the apostles' time and later was the first true living Christianity. However, I don't know of another true faith at this time.
The second part of this question (as I have posed it) is that all other churches are wrong. I believe that there could be in other churches people with warm, loving hearts, attempting to follow the Saviour's commandments to love God and love our neighbors as ourselves. There is, however a difference between the people in a church and the doctrine of the church in which they worship. A perfect example of one side of this discussion is the actions of people who worship in the OALC. It is not always very difficult to find faults with people in our church (myself included); the only person on this earth who has been without sin the He who died for us. However, the doctrine is correct, and Christians, when they fall, are able to have their sins forgiven in Jesus name. On the other side of this discussion would be those churches in which there seem to be God-fearing/loving people, but the doctrine of the church is not supported by the New Testament of the Bible. If there are other churches now with living faith, I just don't know what or where they would be.
For the third part of this question: I hope that no one who believes him/herself to be a Christian would ever say this or believe it. We are not the Judge. While we believe our faith is correct, it is never our place to make decisions about who should be damned. I wonder how someone could "excommunicate" another person in love? Excommunication has no place in true Christianity - we should always draw others closer, not send them away.
I welcome your further discussion about this, 4eyes.
To Searching in BG (and to hp3)- Welcome. I understand how it could be intimidating to come - it is a large service, and we are not as careful as we should be to welcome newcomers - partly perhaps because there are so many people. If you come in the afternoon service (North church only) or to the South church in Brush Prairie, there are somewhat fewer people than at the morning service at the North. As to your questions:
Regarding confessing: All of us are sinful, and the outer body continues to be tempted to sin even after conversion and rebirth. One type of repentance takes place when one first becomes a Christian or after a person feels s/he has left Christianity for a time - this is I believe what hp3 was referring to when (she?) talked about going before the church. I am not familiar with her situation, but I know that this is not required, whoever it is strengthening for the person and for the congregation.
I don't agree with what she says about "their way" or "their wording." When absolving someone who comes to ask forgiveness, it is important though to proclaim that one does this in the Name of Jesus, and we feel it valuable to remind that it is through the power of blood He shed on the Cross (all Christians have this power, not just priests). Maybe this is what hp3 meant.
Another type of repentance (that which you probably say near the end of the service) is the repentance one needs to remove the dirt of the world that wants to cling to a Christian - evil thoughts, anger and impatience, or other sins (including sometimes sins that even non-Christians would think are horrible). This type of repentance can be done as you have seen in church, but also should be done at any time the Holy Spirit reminds you of your sins - at home with your spouse, at work, or whenever needful.
Regarding the highest light: Where did Paul go when he wanted the highest light? He went to see the other apostles in Jerusalem. Not that those apostles were sinless or could not make mistakes (as Paul shows) but that Jerusalem was the center of the Christianity - the place where the early Christians went for advice and counsel.
In like manner, we believe that Wittemberg was that place of highest light during the time of Luther and Melancthon.
Now, at this time, we believe that the highest light is present in Swedish Lapland, where the Elders of our Christianity function in a similar way as the Apostles in the early Christianity and Luther & Co. in the early reformation. This is where we (and our preachers) go for advice, the same way that Paul and others would go to Jerusalem. I don't believe Paul felt he was WORSHIPPING the apostles, but he had faith and trust in them. He knew, as we do, that we must ultimately put our faith in God.
hp3 - I cannot agree that we do not trust in prayer, nor in seeking in the Bible. Jan Hus himself, when surrounded by those who would soon send him to the flames, asked that they would show him where he was wrong by examination IN THE BIBLE. That is just the same request I would have of you. Solitary prayer is critically important - how could one believe otherwise? - as long as it is done for the right reasons, not for showing off your beautiful prayers (as Jesus shows). I believe if you would plainly ask someone from our church if s/he felt it was wrong to read the Bible or to pray, that you would hear just what I say here. We have to read the bible, and we have to pray - for our own sakes, and for others.
Well this is already too long, and I fear it is sounding too much like an argument instead of a discussion. Sometime I would like to meet you face to face, 4eyes, hp3, Searching, and others. If I have offended you I hope you can forgive me.
God be with you.
A weak brother in faith
How can you say one church is a church for every person? Faith is personal. One does not need to belong to one specific church in order to be saved. Faith in Christ is what is required. Many churches also have this same faith. Minor differences in doctrine are unimportant. Its best we all get along and not claim our theologies or ways of interpretation are the only correct interpretation. That is pride rearing its ugly head.
The bible also states in many places that God forgives your sins. Why wouldn't he? Does the OALC preach that you cannot ask God for forgiveness? I know the LLC does. Where is ones personal relationship with him if you cannot go straight to him and talk to him about your sins. Yes, confession is good if you have sinned against someone or you want to get something off your conscience and want to tell someone else. It is not required to tell another person when you have done a personal sin against God. We can freely go to him and talk to him and have faith that he forgives our sin.
Brother, I would like to answer these questions truthfully.
Can you honestly believe the devil has deceived 99.9 percent of the other people who have faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit? Can you honestly say he is THAT powerful? More powerful than God?
Who is this God you believe in that would be so shallow as to lead humble people astray? Mary in Texas or Ralph in Guatemala, or Sue in Oklahoma, or George in Denmark or Peter in Hawaii, wants to do Gods will for their life, not their own. They give their life to Christ, they seek him, pray, have faith (a Christian faith). Can you honestly say God is going to lead them astray? How in the world would they find you? Its near impossible. Drive through every city, town, state and country to every church? Why do you believe God would make himself SO hard to find? WHY?? Why would he remotely even operate that way? He loves us!
I do not believe he would lead humble people astray. He is a loving, caring, compassionate God that accepts all people who have faith in HIM/JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT.
Please answer me, from your heart. I don't want bible verses or things people have taught you. I want YOUR answers. Thanks!
To anonymous 1:41--What a great question, "why would God, who loves us, make himself so hard to find"? Good for you, I agree, God wouldn't operate that way!
I like the analogy that a funeral is another type of wedding. That should be true for all believers in Christ.
Brother you stated "For the first part of this question, I have to say that in much searching for the truth I have not found another church whose doctrine is comprised of the teachings of the Lord Jesus and his apostles. It sounds like you have either found such a church or are now without a church - if you have found the truth elsewhere, where is it?"
The truth cannot be found within a church as a church is led by men whom are fallable and human. (In fact I will intentionally go out of my way to avoid anyone, or any church, who "knows" everything already)
I have found the truth within the bible itself, within the words spoken by my Savior, and I attend a church which is comprised of people whos goal is to read the bible and pray earnestly to hear the Holy Spirit speak to their hearts in correctly understanding the scriptures as they need to be shown. I cannot think of a truer truth than this: to seek after God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul; all in earnest prayer, open to Christ's guidance. That my friend, can be found anywhere, and in anyones heart, as they are, as the Savior came for us.
I am also glad to hear you disagree with my observations about the church doctrine regarding prayer and reading of teh bible. I do appreciate and respect that there are those withing the oalc church who disagree. Yet when I say that I believe that to be the church doctrine, it is because I was instructed by the preacher (behind the pulpit, at gatherings, as well as individually) that these things wer not ok to participate in UNLESS a preacher was there to guide me and give me correct understanding. So no, prayer and reading in themselves were not wrong, but to participate without an oalc preacher there is. You have addressed the reading and praying, but not the preachers. Do you believe that you can read and pray on your own?
I also have to agree with Cassie, anon and llreader: If God sent his only son to DIE for each and every one of us, why would He make it so hard to find him? That His only son's death would be in vain but for a few? Christ clearly states for EVERY one, and instructed us to seek the lost and share His love for them.
As an oalc member, do you observe any type of outreach from members of the church? What do you know of the preachers advice on this? What do you personally strive for?
(I personally found it easier to move away from BG than try to go to a store and be looked through by the ones who used to love me. Or if I did receive a glance or comment, it was with pity or scorn. I dont get asked how I am doing or what I believe and why)
Brother you responded to my experiences and I would like to comment again:
"Regarding confessing: All of us are sinful, and the outer body continues to be tempted to sin even after conversion and rebirth. One type of repentance takes place when one first becomes a Christian or after a person feels s/he has left Christianity for a time - this is I believe what hp3 was referring to when (she?) talked about going before the church. I am not familiar with her situation, but I know that this is not required, whoever it is strengthening for the person and for the congregation."
I was not referring to this type of "new/born again christian" requirement of confession. I was raised in the church 4+ generations, yet when I started to ask questions and doubt the church's doctrine, and others started gossiping untruths about me, THIS is when and what I was told to repent of my "sins" before the congregation or be excommunicated, BY THE PREACHERS. I would love to seperate the members of the church from the doctrine, but when the members are ones preaching the doctrine to the other members, I cannot. When I am speaking to individuals who chose that church as right for them, I can and will.
On the note of a "new christian" repentance, I think this is necessary (yet not before an entire congregation) I believe one needs to make a commitment to Christ and a commitment of turning away from our old life before Christ. Yet how this is done is best left up to the individual as what is meaningful for one may not be so for another.
You also stated "I don't agree with what she says about "their way" or "their wording." When absolving someone who comes to ask forgiveness, it is important though to proclaim that one does this in the Name of Jesus, and we feel it valuable to remind that it is through the power of blood He shed on the Cross (all Christians have this power, not just priests). Maybe this is what hp3 meant."
I have no disagreement that sins are forgiven except through Christ and a reminder of this is indeed valuable, also that all Christians have this power.
What I meant is reflected somewhat in my above response, as well as memories of an entire congregation chanting "Believe all your sins forgiven, forever washed away in the precious blood" (or something similar: I cant believe I dont remember allthe words anymore) Also memories of two people talking at the same time, over the each other, into each others shoulders, without listening: confessing and forgiving. And this being tought in confirmation as the "right" way.
To hp3--What you added to anonymous 1:41's observation, "Why would God make it so hard to find him?" was another very strong statement. Your addition, "God sent his only Son to die for us, why would he limit his death to save only a handful of people when he could save millions and millions?" (not your exact words). I think these are valid questions that point out the weakness in churches that limit salvation to themselves, and exclude all other faiths. I remember a prayer a German guy told me jokingly--God bless me and my son John, my wife, his wife, and that's all!
Any advice for a step-mother of two wonderful teenagers in the oalc?
They live two different lives half with Mom & Step-dad,and half with us...Father is a scientist has a hard time with LLL.
Children do not have friends at our home,and everyone knows teenagers want to be with their friends.... so we see them less & less...
I was raised with God & love in my home, never hear them speak of God only what their Mother thinks is a sin...
Any advice would be helpful..
Hoping to spent more time with them.
raised catholic,
Teenagers observe far more than they let on, and listen to far less than we want to tell them! In other waords, show 'em, don't preach at 'em!
I think if you live your faith with no apologies, do not put down the OALC faith that they are being exposed to, talk occasionally about God and your faith in a non-confrontational or judging way, the kids will be paying attention! Answer their questions truthfully if they ask, and don't avoid the tough questions -- just do your best.
From my experience, I have learned that everyone's faith journey is their own, and we need to let God work in his own way, and on his own schedule!
Bless you -- it won't be easy, but that's ok.
thank you for these words
I grew up in the OALC and attended both in Michigan and Washington state and much of my family is still firmly established in it. I still care for and respect many people from that world but do not have much contact with them anymore so I cant comment that much about how there lives are now and what the church is like these days but I’m sure there is still all of the same fearful holding on to dogma, turning away from and hiding from almost all of lifes beauties and challenges. Its been over ten years since I stopped going and the following words are my thoughts on this big question of what it means to seek the truth about ourselves, humans in general and the greater world.
It takes some guts to put youself out there as to what you believe, it forces you to really ask the tough questions, what you believe and why or how you came to that belief or set of values. I was raised in the OALC and although I’ve left it far behind at this point, and have many disagreements about its teaching, I am a little amazed that I can still appreciate the good things I learned there. Some of the people there really are in touch with that spark of universal truth or love that I will call conscience but many are not and are in fact just as lost as those in the “world” that they show such apathy for.
What about those fundamental questions like what really happens when you die? or what is life for? or what really is heaven and hell? or why do we say that only our people will be saved? When asking people in the OALC, or people from almost any religious doctrine for that matter, only standard, parrot-like answers are recited. And of course, everyone has some kind of answer. The faculty of deeply questioning is what is missing.
Many times when I was growing up I had very strong glimpses of some concrete, clear and most importantly, knowable structure and order to reality. Of course, explanations of reality bombard us from every direction these days whether its a religion, philosophy, culture or lifestyle. I did not totally mis-trust these or my inherited explanation all together, but I did sense that most were half true at best or required me to overlook or just accept certain things that felt a bit off the mark.
At this point, I felt compelled to stop and notice what was happening with me. I saw that my background supplied me with my most defined definition of reality and was based almost completely on conditioning and could hardly call it my own. Right or wrong, it was conditioning and before i could own it, I would have to rediscover or disprove it for myself. Sure, I was confirmed as a teenager and formally a “Christian”. Looking back now I see that I had'nt tried to understand much of anything, not to mention more complex things like why there are so many religions that all began with pure intentions but that end with hatred and violence or just rigid, dogmatic and self serving people.
Also, I could just have easily been born in an african tribe of islamic people, or in a buddhist family in Asia and be seeing this same issue from the other side of the table. Whatever, I feel like the days of a clear transmission of those origonal teachings are gone and now its almost impossible to percieve the real sense of their messages clearly and direct enough without being swept up in some sentimental group that essentialy just shores up peoples emotional expectations for happiness without an accurate guide to unravelling the complexities of life and the universe. To just live simply and avoid all the turmoil is getting to be more difficult these days also with all the chaos we see around the world its hard not to be affected by it. Regardless, I could'nt help noticing bits and pieces of teachings and religions that seemed unshakeably true and somehow self evident.
One of the first things I noticed was that when I was'nt doing anything, I mean not moving, listening to music or watching something, an interesting thing happened. At first, it was strange to just stop everything completely. Then i saw that my body wanted to fidget or I'd get an itch, not because I needed to move but because a part of me did not want to be exposed and needed to create a distraction. Then I saw that my thoughts never actually stopped and just kept coming randomly from one association to the next, linking up and endless stream of chatter and commentary that I'm normally totally immersed in. Each new thought enticed my attention to come back and be absorbed in it and drift away into passivity again. Almost the instant I saw this happening, I noticed that my attention, or focus came back and my breath went deeper, and for a second I was alert and felt more alive and aware than usual similar to how I feel after working through a mental problem or after vigorous physical exertion. This effort at directing the attention was the beginning of a way to renew my energy, or to find a growing sense of well being. This is so opposite of what “outer life” entices us to do more and more with all of its distractions and temptations. An OALC interpretation of this idea would no doubt rant about the “devil” being behind these distractions and temptations which, in my opinion, is ridiculously naïve and superficial. All the problems that people have in the world come from not knowing themselves and their limitations, not from the devil in liquor or Hollywood or what have you. If god wanted us to live a life completely protected from challenges and hardships what would be the point? The spirit needs the struggle between the positive and the negative in order to be born.
In my opinion, what would be more effective and less harmful is an emphasis on the development of personal inquiry and on a completely exploratory introduction to how the world as a whole and throughout all of history has tried to come to grips with these big questions we all face. Maybe then we could find that inner bedrock on which we can rest our souls and truly feel meaning, brotherhood, gratitude, and a love for life in all its difficulty and beauty.
beautifullly expressed!
Anybody know what's wrong with extoots blog?
I also am wondering what is up with extoots
Maybe extoots seeked the truth... and no, I am not talking about the OALC. These sites are pure evil. What is the point? Do you need a place to put your guilt because you no longer have the shoulders of friends and family to cry on? If you are truly "free" then why are spending so much of your time here talking about the religion you claim to be "free" from? Move on- but don't create sites like this. People who are not from the church look for information about it online- and THIS is what they find. Although I'm sure you are all very proud of yourselves for this fact, because you think you are "saving" people from it. I am from the world, but have recently started going to the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church. I am just disgusted by all of the lies I was told about the church on sites like this when I was searching for answers. I am posting this here in hopes that if there is anyone who has questions about the church, they will just try it for themselves. It's not scary- and all of your questions will be answered without having to depend on a bunch of bunch of people who have nothing better to do than sit around and put down others. No one is judging you "ex-oalcers". Your friends and family may worry about where you will end up, but if they are judging, than that is their sin. So don't you think it's about time you stopped judging those who HAVE found Christ in the OALC? Please don't respond to this - I don't intend on visiting this site again.
anon 7:12
I am going to respond because i dont believe you will not come to this blog again and also for those who may read your post.
The truth is not found in a "church". the truth is found in Christ and in his living breathing word. Since the OALC tells you not to read the bible- that you couldnt possibly understand it, you have by definition joined a cult. "follow the leaders but dont search for the truth yourself" its called drinking kool-aid.
I am from the alc (new- or the heritics) so I have years of experience to support what I am saying to you.
soon you will be quoting the elders, the preachers and LLL. But not scripture.
Know this for certain: any church or "religion" that inserts anything into the pure gospel is teaching false doctrine. Believe that Christ died on the cross for your sins, arose and lives today and you shall be saved. When Jesus died he said it is finished.
-free free FREE!
anon 1:39
I know you said you don't intend on visiting again to this site, but in case you do...
With all due respect, you have no idea what the people here have experienced. And in case you didn't read it all, it's been said many times over on this site that the OALC is right for some. But for those of us who have left because it was not right for us, this is a place to heal.
Whether you want to believe what you read here or not is obviously up to you. But I can tell you firsthand that what I have typed here has never been lies. My Christianity means too much to me to type that which is not true. Jesus knows me and my heart.
God's peace and love to you and yours. Keep Jesus as your savior, serve Him and not a particular denomination, and He will Bless you forever.
People come here to share their experiences. No one here is telling any lies about this church. We have all experienced the stuff we are talking about. This is a place for people who have left the church to talk to other people who have also left, because we understand each other. People in the church don't understand what we went through or experienced because they haven't left. These sites aren't meant to put down the church, they are sites to help one another get through the painful exits we all had. Unless you have experienced for yourself what we've experienced, you won't understand and you'll only be critical of us. Don't judge us either. Thanks.
I have stated previously that one thing that concerns me the most is that a chruch is defended by means of denying my, and others, personal experiences. Its sad when the only way a church is defended is by saying "liar, liar, pants on fire" with fingers in thier ears, refusing to believe that anothers experience has just as much truth and validation as thier own, no matter how different. I would also hope that any grown, mature adult would take time to visit a church they are curious about, as well as listen to current and past members opinions, getting a complete, well rounded picture, before drawing thier own conclusion/s. Each of us has to decide for ourselves what is "truth" what to believe and what/whom to follow. Im not presumptious enough to assume one way, or one church is right or wrong for anyone other than me. I pray for everyone who is searching.
Here we go again!
Someone (anon 1:39) attends the OALC a few times and then posts on these sites that we who have decades of experience attending the OALC are posting lies!
Why would ex members such as myself, resort to telling lies about my former church? What would I gain by calling myself a Christian, while posting lies on the net? My motive for posting is to share my experiences in the church with others who have also left, to aid in healing both myself and others. I wish there had been a site like this years ago, where a searcher could read about others experiences with the church, instead of thinking I was the only one with doubts.
So, anon 1:39, I suggest you read the rest of the posts here, including the archived ones, and you will see why we post.
On the other hand, if you don't care to take the time to read and educate yourself, you can continue to drink your kool aid and go away mad!
4eyes I like your posts. I appreciate your blunt honesty. Thanks for sticking around :)
To hp3.
I hope I'm not being too blunt in my responces. I don't suffer fools well, and don't want to appear sarcastic.
I admire how well you keep your cool when responding to others. I enjoy your posts and hope you continue. So many seem to post a few times and then go away.
Thanks for the kind words. :-)
Or alot of people post a few times and then do alot of lurking.
To Searching.
Please, do not believe lies about OALC. God made You seeking, He can make You finfing. I found believieving in Jesus Christ in this church by living Gods Word. Always devil makes lies about christianity.
Sorry, I cannot write good english, I am finnish. tell me about Yors experiment in visiting that church.
sirkka.perala (at) yahoo.com
(chance (at) to @ in e-mail)
To anon from Finland,
Welcome here. Do not let your English keep you from posting.
I am glad you found Christ in the OALC. Many don't, including myself.
I do have a question for you though. How would a person searching for Christ, find the OALC in Australia? If the OALC is the only true faith, why is it so hard to find?
Also, please be more specific and tell us what lies we here are posting about the OALC.
Have a nice day!
To 4eyes. Thank You for welcoming me. I have not born in OALC family, nor my husband. So my way to see things is different. Maybe I can see more precius those things, which others do not see so. These are love in church, clear preaching about righteousness, and that confessing sin is nothing to do in getting faith from God. Sin has its origin in devil and in our polluted nature and it appears in our way to act sinfully.
Australia is under the Queen of England. In England there has been many movements in Holy Spirit, lollards, babtists and Wesleys societies. if some are still living faith, they go to heaven same way as we.
mrs.Perala
Hello Mrs. Perala.
Just out of curiosity, what are the lies the devil had us write about the "Christianity"?
LLLreader--Oh, here you are!!!!!
If the people here and on other similar sites are telling lies, and if the OALC is concerned for people finding "wrong" information about their church, then wouldn't the logical conclusion for the OALC be to put up a web site of their own? As long as they stay out of the internet it will be the outsiders that create the impression people get of the OALC. I don't think people here are telling lies. Why would they? But the inclusion of also OALC voices would be necessary to create an objective picture of the OALC. Members tend to emphasize the positive aspects and belittle or deny the negative aspects, while the opposite is true for ex-members. I try to see both the positive and the negative, but I might not always be successful in doing that. I was able to attend OALC big meetings this summer after a couple of years of non-attendance, and I met just wonderful people there and had a great time visiting with them. There certainly are outright evil people among them, but most of them are wonderful people to have as friends. The message delivered in the sermons was mostly quite ok, but somewhat shallow, seasoned with OALC peculiarities I can very well do without. I love the OALC people, but I have no spiritual need for the OALC, most of all because I've found something that includes all the good things OALC can offer and much much more. “We have seen the true Light, we have received the heavenly Spirit, we have found the true faith: we adore the indivisible Trinity, who has saved us.”
Why would we tell lies on this site, good question hibernatus. For most of us our family members are in the OALC and we love them and wish them no ill. We have no reason or desire to lie.
hibernatus, that was a compelling post, and it certainly resonated with me. I have a large number of relatives and friends still in the OALC, and I love them dearly. For the most part, there is no problem because they don't judge me, and those that do I pay no attention to anyway -- and never have.
There is a separation however, that sometimes makes me disappointed. We don't believe the same way -- and that's ok -- but when you know that many of them think they are the only ones who will be saved, it is sad.
Hello everyone!
It's good to see people posting here. So many things going on in the summer, that the posting really slows down.
Hibernatus, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the OALC to start a web site! Besides being a sin, they are also not going to put their doctrine in writing, especially here on the net for all the world to see. Their doctrine is a collection of everything that has ever been preached by LLL, the Elders, the Missionaries, and the local preachers. That explains why some short time members deny some of the things we post. They simply have not been to church long enough to hear the whole TRUTH!
However, the underlying truth is always the same. They are the only ones who are saved!
So long for now.
But they called me and said they wanted my domain name so they could put up a site.
Surely they couldn't have been lying {GASP!}.
I was going through some old pictures and came across a picture of one of the older OALC members and his baseball team. He has always been a strict member of the church--so I believe the ban on sports teams is a fairly new idea. This was a Battle Ground team. Does anyone else know anything about this topic?
On the topic of sports, many things that were once ok are now a sin. Some things that were once a sin are now ok. One example, the telephone was preached as sin back in the day, as were curtains and pictures. Funny though, we have many pictures of family that were taken when they were a sin! One of the older preachers in my old oalc locality (not Battle Ground)used to play baseball in his younger years. I believe it was discouraged, but not entirely banned, as it is today. So you see, in the oalc, sin is whatever the Elders say it is. They don't consult Scripture, they just make a ruling. A few years ago, on an Elder visit to the USA, at a gathering with the Elders, they said that they were asked whether a mans wedding band was ok, and they determined it was a worldly fashion, and should not be worn. Within a few days, as the word spread, all the mens wedding bands disappeared. So, just like that, the wedding band became sin.Most people don't find Christ in the oalc. What they do find is how to look good to the preachers and other "Christians", and their faith is based on these supposedly good works, although they preach that they are saved by Faith. Sadly though, I believe they put their faith in the preachers and Elders, and not in Our Lord and Savior.
I'm from the LLC, but I have seen similar things be okay, then not okay, and now they are somewhat okay again. Beards are one example.
I remember when it became not okay for a man to grow a beard. If he wasn't clean-shaven, he would be spoken to about it.
Now, I see men with beards, although they are not long and bushy, but neatly trimmed. Almost as if they are testing the waters.
It didn't used to be okay for women to curl their hair, and it was better if they kept it long, and in a bun.
Now it's okay to get perms, cut their hair short, just pretty much whatever. It's so interesting.
Daisy, I'm in the LLC. I know exactly what you are talking about. Things are not acceptable one day and then acceptable the next. It's rediculous.
Its rediculous to base one's salvation on those ever changing things/rules, but its just heart wrenchingly sad to have an entire church's focus be on those things...
Boy do I miss some of the old preachers, like Ralph and Gordan, and even Wilber sometimes.
It's my experience that the teaching is the same (with very little Biblical basis...primarily manmade rules). Whoever is delivering the message just has a different personality so it has a different 'flavor', if you will. Sounds like you liked the flavor of Gordan Rosenlund and Ralph Stewart (and Wilbur Koistenen at times). Blessings!
That observation has been made many times -- that the message preached by that generation of preachers -- Reazo Redinger, Bingo Burris, Hjalmer Wantaja, Bill Homola, Walter Ek were some of my favorites -- was a different one than is being preached today. I always thought they tried to preach doctrine to the best of their understanding, but did so in a much more loving and compassionate way than is seen today. Today it's hellfire and brimstone, thou shalt not (pick a topic), etc.
I agree that the old preachers were more loving and compassionate. Two of my favorites were Reazo Redinger and Walfred Simonson. Looking back on those years in the church though, I now believe that I, like so many still in the church today, put my faith in the personalities of those preachers. The preachers truely believe they are teaching the truth, but the mis-guided message comes through; man made rules and very little scripture.
A lie taught in a loving way is still a lie!
Yes a lie is a lie, regardless. Even less than the truth is a lie. Adding or taking away... whats the verse about that?
My grandmother and I were conversing the other day, and she said she sure wished my spouse could just hear a serman from the oalc, she felt that would make all the difference in our opinion (or lack of) towards the church. I didnt have the heart to tell her the truth.
I would be fine to sit in on a serman if I happened to be visiting relatives and in the area or something of that nature (although my spouse wouldnt) but no matter how fondly I remember the "old" preachers (and I do) I still would not feel obliged to succomb to all the rules and "donts" and therefore would not be considered "a real christian." I know the issue would remain, as it has in the past, about the "appearance of evil" we are "creating" by "looking like the world" and we would never actually get to discuss my faith in Jesus Christ, and biblical verses that pertain to salvation of sins for everyone on Christs terms and conditions, not the oalc's.
I would love to speak to my grandmother about these in depth subjects, because on one hand I want her to truly know Jesus, (whether she is saved or not is not up to me to question) and she is so old and has such little time left, but then I know she was raised in the churh and is so indoctrinated I would only bring her sorrow for me...
Thats the comments I've heard too, if you would just listen to the sermons. They think that would make all the difference in me. Not so! I know what they preach, I grew up that way remember. I don't agree is the issue. I am not going to all of a sudden agree on what they are preaching by listening to more sermons. I actually have a huge problem with what they are preaching and have no interest in the church. I used to go to church with my family on Christmas, but after that last time, I decided not to go anymore. Unbelievers, repent, unbelievers, repent. I wonder if they were preaching that because they knew my husband and I were there. Not a whole lot of the Christmas gospel. I think I'll go to another church in their hometown this Christmas. I wonder what they'd think about that??
When we go back to visit family, we actually do go to another church. Its the one we went to before, but its amazing how hard it is for them to accept that we are so close, and wont go to the oalc... yet so far away... My husband sees it as humorous, but it seems sad to me (and my oalc family too)
Im sad we cant be accepted, that we cant discuss Christ and the bible. They are sad that I am so adament to "stay lost" from the oalc. When one cannot (or will not) try to understand another, there can be no mutual middle ground.
For me, they dont even have to accept, just take time to try and listen and understand. Thats all I ask. See the reverse is true also.. "If you would only listen, you will see"
And youre right, I have listened to them and thier sermans, I have ernestly tried and tried to understand and relate; I also grew up with them and the issue is now one of disagreement. They, however, have not taken the time to just listen nor tried to understand. They think they already know...
I left the OALC after graduating high school. I had tried all my life to believe in their doctrine, but KNEW that God was a loving God, not the hater they preach.
After many years away, I have attended several funerals there. Seeing the sincerity of the church members touched my heart. I still can not agree with much of their teachings.
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